I just want it to work... and it couldn't be any harder to use than Verge2 already is. Not having to compile would be cool too.

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In order to not be a fool, you must first gain experience being one.

I feel it only fair that I vote in my own poll.

For me, VERGE has almost entirely lost sight of what it was. It was a Game Creation Engine that offered its own powerful, but SIMPLE, scripting language to allow flexibility and ease at the same time.

Now, it's no longer an engine, but an interpreter. It comes one step closer to Sphere and it's taking the few steps that have kept me away from Sphere.

Sphere is little more than a wrapper and library for JavaScript and this change for VERGE would make it little more than a wrapper and library for Python.

Probably the biggest reason I've stayed with VERGE is because it used a C-like language structure, so I was able to switch from coding my normal applications to VergeC games without any problems.

If you take away VergeC, the new engine is no longer VERGE and should no longer be titled so.

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Praetor - Strong enough for a man, but made for a woman.

Since people have been asking questions about Python on IRC, here are some pros and cons of a switch to Python:

Pros:

- Python is nominally easier to learn for the complete beginner, as there are several online tutorials and a number of books available. Introductory programming courses are now using Python in the role that BASIC, Pascal, and Logo once filled, simply because it's that easy to learn.

- Python's compilation stage is internal and fast enough to be unnoticeable. This results in faster coding-testing cycles.

- Python has a number of higher-level abstractions that make it more expressive than VC: object-orientation, first-class functions, untyped variables, garbage collection, and more. These features can eliminate a lot of programming overhead, making programs shorter and faster to write.

- Python is made by other people. It already exists, complete and free of major bugs, and it will continue to be improved and debugged with no effort on VERGE's part.

- Python is more complete than VC. It has more data types, better string- and file-handling libraries, and more development hooks (debuggers, profilers, etc.).

Cons:

- All VERGE code is currently in VC. Porting VC code to Python will be straightforward, but it will be very tedious for long programs. Tutorials and utility code would have to be ported as well.

- Python relies on indentation instead of braces to delineate blocks of code. Thus, Python code may not post well on some BBSs or on IRC (although it posts just fine on the Verge Source BBS).

- Python is big. A switch to Python means that the VERGE distribution will increase at least 500k in size, even more if some of the less-common Python modules are included.

- Python does not (currently) require you to declare variables. This means that a mistyped variable name can be interpreted as a different variable, and the error will not be caught until the code executes -- i.e. it will not be caught by the compiler. This means, all branches of code must be tested thoroughly. Of course, VC code also should be tested thoroughly, as there are other kinds of bugs besides typos.

- VC has the potential to be faster than Python. I understand that VC is currently slower than Python, but Python is generally slower than other typed scripting languages. Not that it makes much of a difference, since most of VERGE's CPU time is taken by graphics and sound.

- A switch from VC to any other language means that there will a split in the community for at least a short amount of time, since some people will stick with the old version. This doesn't affect any individual's ability to use the engine, but it does limit resources like tutorials or discussions.

- VERGE has always had VC. For some people, VC is the defining feature of VERGE, so switching to Python effectively makes it another engine, one that is "not VERGE". Of course, whether or not this is an issue for you depends on what you think VERGE "is" and how important using an engine called "VERGE" is to you, which strikes me more as philosophy or nostalgia than anything else.

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I think that all people really want is something that works and is easy to use, and I think that Python may get us to this goal faster than VC. However, I feel that the only people qualified to make this decision are those who are actively developing for VERGE, of which I am not, so I'm going to abstain from this poll.

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1) I thought JL was effectively already doing this- making a higher end version of v2 that was scripted with Python. Although I admittedly don't know the details/ status of the project.

2) I always wondered how tSB's version of verge would be labeled anyway. It's being built from the ground up with completely new code, but remaining a 'version of verge' because of it's similarities- VergeC is one, MapEd another, etc. With this new goal in mind, I wonder if the engine *should* be called verge at all. Not that tSB shouldn't work on whatever project he wants to (or thinks will be best for him and for others).

3) The vote question is vague. "Would I continue to use verge?" isn't clear. Are you asking if I would accept and use the 'new' Python engine, or continue using any older version of verge even if the Python engine was made?
Most likely I would stick with 'plain-old v2.' I've been resilient in the past with newer versions and never saw the need to port. With over 7 hours of Diver Down finished my focus is on the game, not the engine. Would I bother to learn the new version of verge? Maybe, if I thought learning Python would be good for me. I've always been interested in what JL had to say about it.


It's clear that the original goal of verge may be changing, but then again the original intent of the creators wasn't to make a GCE at all, but rather a game.

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You're right. I guess you can mark me down for "don't care", then. :P

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I don't really care because I probably won't use v2.7 anyhow. I've always used the original v2. If v2.7 were to switch to a totally different language I definitely wouldn't use it.

- Choris

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1) tSB has not yet decided to 'get' rid of VC, which you failed to mention. He's trying it to see how it works.

2) Python can be compiled.

3) Just because tSB is making a new version of VERGE doesn't mean you have to stop using the original.

4) I don't see anyone using v2.7's VC either. :P

5) Everyone wants added language capability, but they don't want to use a different language. If you're so concerned with v2.7, finish making the VC compiler.

6) I personally don't care what language V2.7 uses. It's still the same engine.

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- Ear "It's time for the human race to enter the solar system."

on how easy the language is to learn. I only know VC, and the basics to c/c++, so it'd depend on how easy I could learn it with present knowledge.

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TheGerf, not just any gerf.

4) I don't see anyone using v2.7's VC either. :P

That's because it's barely usable as it is. How much longer do you think it'll be before we see a new version if he scraps it and does a new language?

5) Everyone wants added language capability, but they don't want to use a different language. If you're so concerned with v2.7, finish making the VC compiler

I'm not going to finish it unless I know it'll be supported by the v2.7 (or whatever it becomes called) engine.

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Praetor - Strong enough for a man, but made for a woman.

v1 rulz =)

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