vecna
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Ok, I've kept my mouth shut for a while now, but I've had a few beers at loretian's expense and am now ready to post something.
First of all, I'm not dead, and I'm not tatsumi. Although, I have to applaud the logic behind that theory, you know, to win back the heart of "the people" I created my new persona, tatsumi_oreo, my new "people-friendly" persona (cough). Mind you that I actually think tatsumi is pretty cool, but mostly because he's an unapologetic asshole. :D
Secondly, I'd like to officially state my opinion regarding v2.7, speedbump, python, locke, et al. First of all, I, personally, disagree with some (many) of the design decisions that have been made regarding the assorted new versions of V2. I disagree with the decision to move to python for a variety of reasons, among them that if you have to remove VC from VERGE, at least something that's REMOTELY like VC could have been picked. One of the strong points of VC was that if you knew C, C++, Java, or even something like Pascal, it didn't take you long to learn VC. The fact of the matter is, C and it's assorted derivations are the defacto standard among programmers, and it benefits real programmers to use a familiar language, and it benefits newbie programmers to learn VC because it's similar in syntax to C/C++/Java. Furthermore, I have some specific qualms with python; the lack of variable declaration being one of them; Grue has lost hours of coding in PHP on occasion (which works the same way) because of a stupid typo regarding variable names; there's really no excuse for that type of thing to happen in a modern language. Furthermore, using source formatting for grouping is extremely irritating. Call me oldfashioned, I like those languages that dont care about whitespace. But, in any event, the fact of the matter is, between being a senior in college and currently working full time as a programmer for Internet Exposure (which hosts verge-rpg.com, and which also employs loretian, McGrue and aen), I simply don't have time to develop a "Verge3", and because of that, in addition to that fact that, differences aside, I think speedbump has the best of intentions, and as I don't have time to work on a new V2 or a V3 myself, I've refrained from publicly critizing V2.7 or anything like that (until now. bleh.)
There are also issues about breaking compatibility with existing VC, which, with SotS, had many many many thousands of lines of VC code and was in the process of converting to V2.7 when tsb decided to switch. And, debatably, McGrue had a "promise" from tsb that he'd finish v2.7 with VC, which is why he was so pissed when it switch. I do not myself claim to know whether or not that's true.
All that said, I believe tsb and the "original" dev team have an understanding that he won't call whatever further versions of VERGE "verge3". Any other name is open, but not that. We're not currently working on a verge3, but we'd like to keep the option open. I respectfully ask that locke also respect that.
I was going to make a comment about Sharkey, but my better judgement has kicked in and I think I'll continue to hold my tongue. Let me just say that Sharkey has, as in all things, exaggerated the situation that he described on his webpage. And before any of you are tempted to think that Sharkey or Lisa are "cool" (...) I'd encourage you to look at their comments and consider the caliber of person that their comments suggest about them. Also, ehm. Let me just say that both myself and McGrue are in much better positions after this, and if Sharkey and Lisa are really as "better off" as they claim to be, well then, maybe the whole thing was a good idea all around.
Lastly, and do not take this as any sort of announcement or as any sort of assertion that it will ever come out or be playable, and it has surprisingly little to do with the recent talk about it on this board, but: I've got the itch to code VO again. I AM coding VO again. If anyone is interested and would like to help, let me know. All I can really say is while playing Star Ocean 2 at Hahn's place I got a sudden kick in the ass of inspiration, though it doesn't have all that much to do with Star Ocean 2, other than having ungodly amounts of seemingly retarded skills. I also have a much clearer picture of where I want to go with it this time, and how to differentiate it from the other MMORPGS that are out there. Let me reiterate that it STILL WILL PROBABLY NEVER COME OUT. But I'm gonna give it a good shot, and I'm a much better programmer than I was before, and I have a bit more realistic expectations of the resources at hand and whats possible, and if anyone is interested in helping, I'm game.
-vecna
Posted on 2001-08-03 01:09:19
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andy
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I agree with a few of your concerns regarding Python. I'd be much happier with it if it had strict typing and all that. It just makes more sense to have the compiler check that sort of thing. That's my sole qualm with Python, however. I find the "bare" syntax very liberating. It's quite easy to make an object in Python that will not allow you to add members to it dynamically, I intend to use this profusely. ;)
I think the whole McGrue fiasco was a simple misunderstanding that went way further than it should/could have. I never flat out, explicitly promised to use VC, rain or shine, sleet or hail, etc, etc... It's too bad it turned out the way it did. Sorry things turned out the way they did, Grue. (if you wind up reading this)
Lastly, if you can handle my arcane programming structures, (which I can implement in straight-up C, if need be) nag me for VO code. It'll be fun, as they say.
"Ignorance is its own reward" -- Proverb
Posted on 2001-08-03 01:48:01
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-zaril-
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I think the arguments for not using Python are good reasons, however I can't understand this 'fear'/'dislike' for Python. Sorry if I used the wrong words. Python might not be the solely perfect programming language to fit VERGE and its purpose. However, the lovely thing about Python is that it isn't strict. The purpose of the new VERGE versions seem to have always been more flexibility. Code your own menus, battle systems, item systems etc. Python kind of takes it all a step further (what I've experienced coding it).
I've rambled long enough without good points. The thing about SotS is a loss, not really much to say. We lost FR as well (they changed to Sphere in the end anyway if i recall correctly). What would be needed is some small activity in the community based around VERGE. Perhaps I'm writing this to the general audience and not you directly, vecna. So, if you are busy and leaving what you once created, that's a shame. Well, I'm sentimental, who wouldn't get back to where V2 was about the 1337est wish for xmas..? Things have continued, and like me (who has a hard time doing it) people should go on. Creating games with V 2.7 and Python.
Perhaps with the name issues and proper respect, the engine should be called something else. It doesn't matter to me though, I'll use the newest engine tSB coded whatever name he gives it.
I've never said it straight out, but thank you for starting VERGE. I've dedicated the last 3 years of my life just hanging around with VERGE and creating games. (I sound like one of those on TV on how products changed their lives). However true, I'm glad VERGE was made and that it keeps on going (just like spiderman's other suits) a bit changed.
I hope this address can get kicking soon, I have games to make. With Python things are going A LOT easier and it's all a lot better. I express my love for tSB's choice - Python (everyone should have one home!).
zaril@hellven.org - ICQ 7698022
Posted on 2001-08-03 02:21:13
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