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My Six Pence Displaying 1-15 of 15 total.
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-zaril-
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(this post was supposed to be a new topic, it is also foudn as a reply to Roto about how VERGE is a new beast and the vereg community is dead)
The verge community "died" (to quote you all) when people stopped releasing small games, x-mas games, short unfinished crappy V1 games that were fun. Well, we have passed the time when SNES was the coolest thing ever, the requirement some put on themselves when it comes to graphics are immense. Shadows, 3D, Pixel Accurate Movement (graphically) and characters made by pros. Verge "died" when the community turned different. Yes, the old community is dead in whatever sense, since we changed.
Who cares if V 2.7 is something new, you are all entitled to use the old crappier versions, without getting laughed at. If you are too afraid someone won't like your art and you don't release - well, that's basically forming the problem. I and a few others (rpg, swordsman, rysen) have been starting small games - The Questing is mine. It will be released for your playing. It will be crappy in many ways, I don't put high requirement on myself. So, please, allow yourself to throw out a little crap and put some life into the skeleton of VERGE.
I was afraid Python would mess up everything, but it is plain simple and makes the pain of coding VC go away. Lists, keys, garbage collector, object orientation.. Python is great for Verge. So, please, people if you care so much as to "revive" the "dead" community, "make games, don't whine". If we had 5-6 new small little games that could continue posted in the news, the community would seem quite more alive. If we need more life, just get more people interested in making small little games.
If people need help in learning Python I bet we can make a more simplistic tutorial on how you can create different scripts and show you how the language works.
Anyone who declares a breathing person dead, surely has no doctor's education. VERGE is alive, you're not seeing the full picture imho, we've got the people, where are the games? Well, I sure am working on one, (The Questing) are you?
http://www.mastercain.com/thequesting
zaril@hellven.org - ICQ 7698022
Posted on 2001-07-31 03:03:43
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Miggle
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ntntnt
Posted on 2001-07-31 03:50:14
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Roto
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(It was really really late when I wrote this. 6:30 AM even. If you want me to clarify, just ask. I'll be glad to.)
The verge community "died" (to quote you all) when people stopped releasing small games, x-mas games,
short unfinished crappy V1 games that were fun. Well, we have passed the time when SNES was the coolest thing ever, the requirement some put on themselves when it comes to graphics are immense. Shadows, 3D, Pixel Accurate Movement (graphically) and characters made by pros. Verge "died" when the community turned different. Yes, the old community is dead in whatever sense, since we changed.
I pretty much inferred the same reason why the Verge community died from the start, but thanks for putting this into much better words than I could ever do. However, I never said that Verge had died so don't infer that.
Who cares if V 2.7 is something new, you are all entitled to use the old crappier versions, without getting laughed at. If you are too afraid someone won't like your art and you don't release - well, that's basically forming the problem. I and a few others (rpg, swordsman, rysen) have been starting small games - The Questing is mine. It will be released for your playing. It will be crappy in many ways, I don't put high requirement on myself. So, please, allow yourself to throw out a little crap and put some life into the skeleton of VERGE.
Ahem, not crappy, but poorly programmed. v2.7 might be better than plain ol' Verge and it's variations, but it's still got a long way to go in my book. Besides anyone else with a good knowledge of C++, DirectX, good design and programming skills could alway make something better. Just that no one has tried. Again, don't infer. I don't care what people think, simply because I'm here to make games and not be critiqued by the Verge community. However I am not going to give crap. It would not be fulfilling. It would be an insult to myself. I don't like insulting myself. I do that enough already.
I was afraid Python would mess up everything, but it is plain simple and makes the pain of coding VC go away. Lists, keys, garbage collector, object orientation.. Python is great for Verge. So, please, people if you care so much as to "revive" the "dead" community, "make games, don't whine". If we had 5-6 new small little games that could continue posted in the news, the community would seem quite more alive. If we need more life, just get more people interested in making small little games.
Yes, Python is plain, simple, and easy, but that doesn't guarantee that you'll make a game. VC was plain, simple, and easy but it took time to learn.
Python is more likeable because you could probably work with it within a day. While VC's like C, it's not really hard. Just takes time to learn. And about the making and releasing games part, I've been preaching that from the start.
If people need help in learning Python I bet we can make a more simplistic tutorial on how you can create different scripts and show you how the language works.
Unfornuately, I don't need to know how Python works or how good it is. I have had my try with it. I admit it's easy and there are some really nice things that should've been implemented in VC. So why am I not using v2.7? It's more of a character quirk on my part. I don't want to use it because it claims to be Verge when it is not. It's like me claiming to be the king of England, it's stupid.
When vecna ever gives v2.7 his stamp of approval then I might reconsider my actions but until then, I can and will think otherwise.
Anyone who declares a breathing person dead, surely has no doctor's education. VERGE is alive, you're not seeing the full picture imho, we've got the people, where are the games? Well, I sure am working on one, (The Questing) are you?
Again, I never said Verge was dead. Anyone, who thought that, was reading between the lines and should stop playing Paranoia (the game). The community however is pretty much so. Most of the people here are praising something that is not Verge. I'm seeing the full picture, my friend. It's unbearably clear. I'm being more honest to myself and the world than a drunk and angry priest.
And as for my game, I'm working on it. It will either be called Ain Soph or The God Game, a world of deities where mortal children are killed off and forced into divine acsencion. Ahhhhh, pure troubling bliss.
Then again, I have quite the slew of ideas that might make better games. People, I'll decide in time.
Posted on 2001-07-31 06:20:58
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-zaril-
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To begin with, we seem to define VERGE differently. To quote you:
"Verge isn't dead but the community built around it surely is."
Imho, the community IS VERGE, since an engine doesn't require blood circulation, breathing and firstly off was inanimate. Unless you consider that the electric/magnetic data can fade away (die).
"And while v2.7 will probably make the whole game making process easier, it doesn't guarantee that you'll make a game."
I don't see the point. You use V 2.7 to make it possibly a lot easier, a lot wider and a lot more cleaner than VC. Whatever time it takes, it's possible to learn within a day if you know VC. That increases the chances of me actually doing a game, so I think the statement is quite from your own point of view.
"Still, I believe that the general Verge community is almost dead. People who say that it isn't are wrong."
Someone who doesn't see it your way is wrong. Well, either you'll tell me I'm reading between the lines or infer or whatever, you can't tell people they are wrong when you have no idea of what the community thinks. No one but void itself can declare a community dead. As long as people post, code, make gfx, the community is alive.
"Most of the people here are praising something that is not Verge. I'm seeing the full picture, my friend. It's unbearably clear. I'm being more honest to myself and the world than a drunk and angry priest."
However you act just like one, you have some blind faith in that you are correct. I've been here longer than you, and there is nothing really wrong with the community, besides all the new people who act like they know everything and put their own visions about VERGE before the masses and won't accept the opinions of others. If I'm wrong, you'll think of it and accept that the community is not dead.
I think your post is a little too biased in order for me to even continue.
ut I'll try a last quote:
"When vecna ever gives v2.7 his stamp of approval then I might reconsider my actions but until then, I can and will think otherwise"
I get the feeling you'd jump down a mountain if he told you to. Respect to him for starting it all, but he's not the one who runs it nor should give the stamp of approval. I sure give it my own stamp of approval, tSB has made a great job. Verge has changed, but it is still verge.
If I sound like I'm bashing you in this post, I bet I am. I'm quite upset that people who never was here from the start dictate on how it is and defines what the verge community is. If you want to help the community, come with good suggestions and try to help the new. Try to get new people here, try to get the community more active by encouragment instead of your doomsfay prophecies (take it however literally you want, 'my friend')
Imho, A priest isn't enlightened, he is in the dark, cursed with a narrow mind.
Seven Pence, and I'd not mind to continue the dance, but I think I might have more productive things to do.
Depends on the fun of it all.
- Zaril
zaril@hellven.org - ICQ 7698022
Posted on 2001-07-31 07:00:06
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invicticide
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The current community isn't dead, just the old one (except for GMW, LadyDeathRose, and a few others that keep popping up :)
v2 was as different from v1 as v2.7 is from v2, just in different ways. Does that mean v2 wasn't Verge? Not to bash Roto, though... everyone should use whatever engine he/she is most comfortable with, in order that they can make great games!
Zaril has a point with the loss of SNES in the mainstream. People, Verge was made for SNES-quality RPGs, not PSX/PS2 quality. Pace yourselves! If you like what you've made, chances are it's good enough to release.
And personal opinions (and bias!) are a major part of this board, and the world. It's what makes us creative. Instead of bashing each other, feed off each other's conflicting ideas. I know that sounds all preachy, but it's not. I promise :)
Anyway, I think it's a moot point. Use whatever version of Verge you're comfortable and familiar with, in which you can have the most fun making the coolest game. And for god's sakes, quit arguing over whether v2.7 is Verge or not! It's a GCE, and that's all that matters.
That is all.
--Invicticide
We don't need better engines, we need better creation tools!
Posted on 2001-07-31 10:14:44
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-zaril-
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that hit a spot! :D
zaril@hellven.org - ICQ 7698022
Posted on 2001-07-31 14:13:28
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Roto
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Imho, the community IS VERGE, since an engine doesn't require blood circulation, breathing and firstly off was inanimate. Unless you consider that the electric/magnetic data can fade away (die).
No, the community is not Verge and never will be. Verge is a program, not a community. They didn't give the community the name of Verge. They gave that to the program. So...
I don't see the point. You use V 2.7 to make it possibly a lot easier, a lot wider and a lot more cleaner than VC. Whatever time it takes, it's possible to learn within a day if you know VC. That increases the chances of me actually doing a game, so I think the statement is quite from your own point of view.
Obviously you didn't see the point. v2.7 still is pretty much far from a MakeGame() function. You still have to get off of your scalp and put a decent amount of blood and sweat into it to get a game, a completed one. You got to do art, find appropriate music, code, write a story, and then put it all together. It's a long and laborous route and not many people can do it, even in a team.
That's because many people think that game creation is easy. It is not. Think about. Do you know how little actual games are completed with RM2K? Not a whole trifling lot are. Maybe one out of 200 are ever completed. And those that are completed are quite minimialist.
Someone who doesn't see it your way is wrong. Well, either you'll tell me I'm reading between the lines or infer or whatever, you can't tell people they are wrong when you have no idea of what the community thinks. No one but void itself can declare a community dead. As long as people post, code, make gfx, the community is alive.
I'm entitled to say whatever I feel, you don't have to argue with me, but think about it. What I'm saying does make sense. You just have to look at the picture again from start and instead of ignoring parts which might and may cause frisson, look deep into them.
However you act just like one, you have some blind ?faith in that you are correct. I've been here longer than you, and there is nothing really wrong with the community, besides all the new people who act like they know everything and put their own visions about VERGE before the masses and won't accept the opinions of others. If I'm wrong, you'll think of it and accept that the community is not dead.
I think your post is a little too biased in order for me to even continue.
Nor did I say I'm correct. Again, you infer. I'm just, in my own humble opinion, being truthful to myself and the way I see things. I've been here for a long long time, but just haven't been a part of community (and perhaps I'm still not) and from my point view, I view v2.7 nothing more than a maggot (I'm using this in a figurative sense, and not an insulting one) feeding off the meat of a 'live' bull.
As for me being biased? Well, bud, welcome to the team. Let's revel in our biasness.
I get the feeling you'd jump down a mountain if he told you to. Respect to him for starting it all, but ?he's not the one who runs it nor should give the stamp of approval. I sure give it my own stamp of approval, tSB has made a great job. Verge has changed, but it is still verge.
Don't INFER (again) that I'm a simpleton. Would you like it if I inferred that you were a tSB's bendover brother? No. Well then...
And it's Vecna's right. He made Verge and Verge 2. Verge is his creation and not tSB's. V2.7 is tSB's creation, but it shouldn't be called Verge. It should be called something else. V is a start. Maybe Pisces or Odin. There are so many names. Why still use "Verge"? Nostaliga should not factor into this.
If I sound like I'm bashing you in this post, I bet I am. I'm quite upset that people who never was here from the start dictate on how it is and defines what the verge community is. If you want to help the community, come with good suggestions and try to help the new. Try to get new people here, try to get the community more active by encouragment instead of your doomsfay prophecies (take it however literally you want, 'my friend')
I'm not dictating what you should believe. Sorry if I came off that way. But seeing how you were trying to bash me all the way (without considering more logical and less insulting means) that means that my arguement was effective in opening a closed mind to a never imagined viewpoint.
As for helping community, are you kidding? I'm going to help the program itself. That's where my concern should be. Perhaps, fix up some documentation, write some tutorials, and maybe create a pack-in demo (then again, Zara and tSB did incredibly great demos/games and have you seen what happened to both of them? Absolutely nothing. See why I don't want to help the community? It's just more effective and promising to help singular individuals.)
Imho, A priest isn't enlightened, he is in the dark, cursed with a narrow mind.
My mind isn't narrow. If it was narrow, I would be here preaching how v2.7 sucks when it totally doesn't.
However, I'm stubborn. When my foot sinks deep into something, I'm bound not to move back another inch.
Unless, of course, someone provides a more logical arguement.
Which of course you haven't.
Seven Pence, and I'd not mind to continue the dance, but I think I might have more productive things to do.
Depends on the fun of it all.
Sure, I do believe this to be quite a riot. After all, I get to debate and practice my writing skills. Please continue if you like.
Posted on 2001-07-31 15:43:25
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Roto
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v2 was as different from v1 as v2.7 is from v2, just in different ways. Does that mean v2 wasn't Verge?
But v2.7 was created by tSB, while V1 and V2 were worked on by Vecna and the dev team. That's a huge difference in my book. A solitary man doing better work than a team. Does that mean he's entitled to use the name Verge? Of course not, if he were more self-respecting he would make a subtle attempt of self-grandizing himself and give his work a title he wanted, not letting the duty fall into the hands of a community inflicted with nostaliga and utterly confused newbies who don't know who to believe.
Hopefully when vecna bloody comments on v2.7, then all will be put to rest.
And no, I'm not dictating. I'm just giving my view. If you want to disagree, feel free. Then again, aren't you always entitled to that? You don't really need me to point that out. :P
Posted on 2001-07-31 15:49:48
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invicticide
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"Sure, I do believe this to be quite a riot. After all, I get to debate and practice my writing skills. Please continue if you like."
At least you got that part right!
That is all.
--Invicticide
We don't need better engines, we need better creation tools!
Posted on 2001-08-01 00:42:15
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Roto
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(nt)
Posted on 2001-08-01 01:19:29
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-zaril-
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Well, perhaps I won't continue since you easily annoy me with your sudden changes. In your post "things are" "this is correct" etc. I'm used to talking to philosophical peolpe who know the differance between saying "this seems correct" "this might be correct" instead of "VERGE is dead, anyone who doesn't agree is WRONG" now don't tell me you just express an opinion. This is surely dictating of what IS and what is NOT correct. Everyone has freedom of speech, but that doesn't mean people will applaud you. Once more, the v 2.7 MakeGame() Issue. We don't need a makegame() function (yes, not literally taken) we need a good engine that has variety and options. Plugins could be added, and whatever thought up - still tSB has OBVIOUSLY chosen to keep the name VERGE, and since it is based off of VERGE, it is VERGE. Unless Vecna has copyrighted the name and tell tSB to not use it. He is too kind yes, and I am not his bendover brother or whatever you wrote, he's a great friend of mine and the coder of our project.
And you must be quite literally taking this if you can't see that Verge is also a name for the community. When you say Verge and have been in the community for 3 years you call the community Verge as well, the engine doesn't come without the people. However, let's just admit that your opinion is different and not argue what we won't change, since Verge to me isn't just the engine.
"I'm entitled to say whatever I feel"
well, so am I, but if you want to practice your skills in discussion, don't claim to know everything, that's a direct stamp of "narrow-minded" since you obviously can't see other possibilities if you KNOW God exists. You'd not see that he might not, since you know. If I am wrong, then I couldn't be right, the choice is simple, narrow and without much option. If you later in a reply tell me it's all just opinions and that it might be different, please try to write it in english instead of arguing your evident lack of explanation upon me cause I can't read your mind about your (deep) non-existant meanings in your words. Since after two posts you still defend yourself like I don't understand your language. Well, I know English, but please do make yoruself clear if you ever wish to write or discuss.
"Don't INFER (again) that I'm a simpleton. Would you like it if I inferred that you were a tSB's bendover brother?"
(found the quote) Actually I'd not care if anyone did. Who knows, maybe someone can be correct about it? O_O OMG, no impossible!!!
"But seeing how you were trying to bash me all the way (without considering more logical and less insulting means) that means that my arguement was effective in opening a closed mind to a never imagined viewpoint."
what is logical about opinions? and yes, I'm upset that is why I bash you :) you change your stances in the next reply, or blame me not understand on me, when you clearly can't make a point simple and clear without discussing options and about my 'closed mind' I can only laugh at you for your obviously very bad judgment of character. I've spent my life in having an open mind, seeing possibilities and arguing for points I don't actually care about. I don't do this without reason however. The obvious, isn't always correct.
And about insults, you are insulting my intelligence all the way with your replies. You're just a bit more subtle than I am right now.
About debating, it is lovely, but please - if you want me to understand, don't write as if you knew everything about the universe.
"As for helping community, are you kidding? I'm going to help the program itself. That's where my concern should be. Perhaps, fix up some documentation, write some tutorials, and maybe create a pack-in demo (then again, Zara and tSB did incredibly great demos/games and have you seen what happened to both of them? Absolutely nothing. See why I don't want to help the community? It's just more effective and promising to help singular individuals.)"
Well, I hope you do those things, since if you write tutorials and in the end it ends up in the document section - you HAVE helped the community. Glad if you don't see it, but please do write material and make games, that IS what the community needs to get more life.
"Nor did I say I'm correct. Again, you infer. I'm just, in my own humble opinion, being truthful to myself and the way I see things"
If you are truthful to yourself, keep it to yourself (i bet this triggers the "I HAFF RITE TO SPEACH!
zaril@hellven.org - ICQ 7698022
Posted on 2001-08-01 03:22:18
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Roto
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Let's see, let's begin by pressing the START button...
"Well, perhaps I won't continue since you easily annoy me with your sudden changes."
I haven't changed. I was like that from the start. I don't see any major changes in what I said.
"In your
post "things are" "this is correct" etc. I'm used to talking to philosophical peolpe who know the differance between saying "this seems correct" "this might be correct" instead of "VERGE is dead, anyone who doesn't agree is WRONG" now don't tell me you just express an opinion."
Ahem, I was being philosophical enough to allow you to say your opinion without mocking or degrading you. However, it seems that you're not going to allow me the same.
"This is surely dictating of what IS and what is NOT correct. Everyone has freedom of speech, but that doesn't mean people will applaud you."
No, that was stating an opinion. Again, you are inferring. Maybe I should've been more discreet, more detailed, but alas I can't do that all of the time. As for freedom of speech, I agree with what you're saying. But do I need the hearts of the masses? Not really. I have words and a brain capable enough to using them. I don't need the approval of people to
use this profound ability as I see fit.
"Once more, the v 2.7 MakeGame() Issue. We don't need a makegame() function (yes, not literally taken) we need a good engine that has variety and options."
Again, you rushed when you were reading. Never did I say that v2.7 was a MakeGame() function, but a lot of people will view it as such and reject it when it fails to meet thier expectations.
"...- still tSB has OBVIOUSLY chosen to keep the name VERGE, and since it is based off of VERGE, it is VERGE. Unless Vecna has copyrighted the name and tell tSB to not use it."
No, it isn't. It's purely original code, using a whole entirely different language, with it's own special base functions holding similarities to VergeC2 functions. If V2.7 is Verge, then I can't see why Sphere isn't.
"He is too kind yes, and I am not his bendover brother or whatever you wrote, he's a great friend of mine and the coder of our project."
Agreed. He is too kind. As for that comment, it stands true only in a particular case which I had established after it, look at the paragraph again. Please.
"And you must be quite literally taking this if you can't see that Verge is also a name for the community. When you say Verge and have been in the community for 3 years you call the community Verge as well, the engine doesn't come without the people. However, let's just admit that your opinion is different and not argue what we won't change, since Verge to me isn't just the engine."
I am and I'm entitled to. The engine comes from a coder or a team of coder. The people of the "community" don't rally and code. If that did happen, Verge would've been a lot messier, with a lot more nonstandard versions and agruements over what was the true Verge. Oh...wait...that's already happened.
"well, so am I, but if you want to practice your skills in discussion, don't claim to know everything,"
Obviously I do not. You are inferring.
"That's a direct stamp of "narrow-minded" since you obviously can't see other possibilities if you KNOW God exists."
Don't infer that I think God exists either. Again, that's you being paranoia and reading between the lines.
"You'd not see that he might not, since you know. If I am wrong, then I couldn't be right, the choice is simple, narrow and without much option."
You're ranting....
"If you later in a reply tell me it's all just opinions and that it might be different, please try to write it in english instead"
And insulting...
"of arguing your evident lack of explanation upon me cause I can't read your mind about your (deep) non-existant meanings in your words."
And very hypocritical.
"Since after two posts you still defend yourself like I don't understand your language. Well, I know English, but please do make yoruself clear if you ever wish to write or discuss."
Did I ever assume that you didn't know English? Hell, I didn't even know you were from Sweden until tonight. As for my english, I was clear, so incredibly clear.
And if I wasn't, you could've simply asked for clarity without ranting or being insulting.
"Actually I'd not care if anyone did. Who knows, maybe someone can be correct about it? O_O OMG, no impossible!!!"
The condition has been met. Although I'm removing tSB from this sick joke. He is too nice. Instead I'll find you a suitable partner, someone big and sadistic.
"what is logical about opinions?"
That some opinions are logical.
"Yes, I'm upset that is why I bash you :)"
I'm upset too. Do you see me trying to bash you? No. I've kept my overbearness to a minimum. Didn't even try to insult you or your intelligence until you took the initative.
"you change your stances in the next reply, or blame me not understand on me, when you clearly can't make a point simple and clear without discussing options and about my 'closed mind'"
I didn't. I just stated them a lot more clearly and you do probably understand because you're upset.
"I can only laugh at you for your obviously very bad judgment of character."
As you can see, I'm not cowering in shame. I'm looking down at you in pity, because you could have taken this a lot better.
"I've spent my life in having an open mind, seeing possibilities and arguing for points I don't actually care about. I don't do this without reason however. The obvious, isn't always correct."
Open minded? Maybe. Not everyone can be biased with everything. Then again, not everyone can not be biased with everything. Reason? You've insulted me without reason, which means that you weren't looking with your open mindedness.
And the obvious is correct a lot more than the inobvious. And if you do see the inobvious, it is made obvious.
"And about insults, you are insulting my intelligence all the way with your replies. You're just a bit more subtle than I am right now."
Insulting? No, you are inferring. Inferring. INFERRING. STOP INFERRING. SHEESH. However, I'm telling you this as a honest soul, that you can
make your point a lot better by being rational and attacking my own agruements and not me. It works,
see how it's working on you?
"About debating, it is lovely, but please - if you want me to understand, don't write as if you knew everything about the universe."
It's clear that I don't understand all there is to know about the universe. I never said that I did. By saying that, you're simply making me out to be that way.
"Well, I hope you do those things, since if you write tutorials and in the end it ends up in the document section - you HAVE helped the community. Glad if you don't see it, but please do write material and make games, that IS what the community needs to get more life."
No, I haven't. I have helped the solitary individuals who used it and then gone off to make games. I haven't helped anything a lack who hasn't. It isn't like the whole entire community benefits from a single effort. Do you think the Verge Source, Sully Pi, and EZV2 did much? No, but it helped a few. That's what makes them great.
As for games and materials, I've seen and been doing that from the start. That is the only thing that will save your Verge community. It's about time you get to it. Join me in the eternal sideshow of the God Game.
Yes, that was a bit too silly. I just can't keep a straight face at the moment. You're just too serious and I find it funny. But not to worry, it's something I find to be an extremely good quality to possess and I admire you somewhat for having it.
"If you are truthful to yourself, keep it to yourself (i bet this triggers the "I HAFF RITE TO SPEACH!"
No. But to mock you, I will say it something like it correctly...
I will always have the right to speak my mind.
Thank you for the time. Godspeed to the developmental progression of The Questing.
Posted on 2001-08-01 04:44:21
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-zaril-
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You've missed all the points I've made. Everything you have replied upon have been based on your misunderstanding and I am sorry, if you do not understand me and I do not understand you, let's call it quits. Since you can't actually see what is non-relevant in what I say (I NEVER SAID YOU BELIEVED IN GOD!) *it just might have been an example* so, have fun. :) And I bash cause I feel like having a bash party in my post right now, if I wanted a calm a good discussion I'd take it with someone who can handle it, thanks for playing! Game over!
zaril@hellven.org - ICQ 7698022
Posted on 2001-08-01 05:42:17
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Roto
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I'm sorry. So sorry. Just don't mind me. It's 6AM and
I'm being an idiot on purpose.
Posted on 2001-08-01 05:52:35
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-zaril-
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Yes Bills, like.. Bill Clinton, Bill Hughley, Bill Stanton.
(some exceptions; we also accept Billys)
zaril@hellven.org - ICQ 7698022
Posted on 2001-08-01 06:17:19
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