I will tell you straight out that I am/was looking forward to Python v2.7. And yes, I know this is getting old, for I believe it to. That's exactly why I hope to have the final word and stop any complaining going on. I will address several of the points made in the community problems this Python poses and will tear a hole in their logic to show you that we have only to gain by using it.

1) "IT WILL BE TOO HARD TO PORT"
Say you're making a game in v2k+j. You already have a whole lot of code and are satisfied with v2k+j's performance and capabilities. Suddenly, a new engine, rumored to completely pass up v2k+j, comes out. I feel that this is the feeling of many a VERGE user these days. But here's something that everybody has overlooked so far - if you're happy with what you've got, why make it better at your own expense? If it's not broke, don't fix it, as they always say. If you have the ability to make so much for an engine, you're apparently happy with it and should just keep developing on it as if nothing had ever happened.

Then, there's a second scenario. Say the engine has been announced, like v2.7 has. You decide not to code anything on your project and wait for it, as I did. This is all well and good. If this suits you, why the hell are you complaining about portability, you idiot? In this case, you'd have nothing to port because you wouldn't have wasted your time making code you didn't like in the first place. That brings me to point 3.

If you made code for an engine you didn't like in the first place, you must be dumb, drunk, or drugged, for what a stupid mistake that was. You should just ask yourself what you were on, wasting your time like that. It's like cooking a type of food that you and everyone else hates - why bother? If your answer is to learn and to get better, then you wouldn't be complaining about having to do all that extra code anyway.
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1) "IT WILL BE TOO HARD TO LEARN"
Uh, yeah, you moron - Python is even easier to learn than VC. People commonly complain about now having to learn about VC then switching to Python midstream. Let me tell you something - Python and VC are very similar. In fact, a port, if it need be, would consist of removing brackets, adding some colons, indenting (if it wasn't already (which it should be, you bad coder you)), and changing around some functions. That's it! From then on, you'd be entitled to excellent string/object/list support among other things. ALl your learning of VC would not go to waste, for most of it applies to Python as well. Also, it took tSB **TWO HOURS** to implement Python in v2.7. DID YOU HEAR THAT?! TWO HOURS. With a little more work, he would have been back up to where VC left off, and from there, it would improve exponentially.
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3) "VC IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN PYTHON"
Ok, what a false statement THIS is. I've seen only a couple of people use this argument, but it's there nonetheless. I think I'll use some of JL's arguments to defend myself. First of all, Python, as of current, is a bit faster than VC in execution. Even though most of VERGE's speed depends on its graphics and music, among other things, this will help a little bit, which will make nitpicky people like Ear more happy. Secondly, VC is incomplete and continues to be rewritten and rewritten, along with having bungled and unclean source. Python, on the other hand, has been in solid, continual development for YEARS by MANY people.
On a third note, Python has excellent string and object support. It also has lists, which are like structs in that they can contain multiple types. Think of an array with string, int, and floats in it. Amazing. In conclusion, Python is much more tactical and powerful than VC in almost every way imaginable.
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4) "IT'S NOT VERGE!"
This is the biggest argument so far. Just what defines VERGE? Is it the coding language? The engine? The community? Let's think about it. Every version of VERGE has changed the engine AND the language. Since v2.6 is being called VERGE and v2.7 is not, I guess it's the just the language. However, if we take away the names of the languages, you can think of it as just another change in the language we use. It's called evolution, folks. I don't know about you, but I'm damn glad we're not as intelligent as monkeys.

On another note, so what if he uses someone else's code? I don't know if you know this, but any coding done except DIRECT hardware manipulatino is ripping off someone else. And, even then, you're using someone else's hardware! The only way to be completely original is to make your own computer with your own parts set up by you and to make your own language and compiler and entire language system which you use to program. You'd also need to build your own keyboard and mouse, since using them is taking advantage of someone else's effort. So, by using VERGE, you, in fact, are using someone else's code. Think before you use this as an argument.

Pride is one of the deadly sins for a reason. Would you rather have tSB code it himself and have it suck than use Python and have it be the greatest damn thing ever to touch VERGE? In this case, we wouldn't use it anyway! We'd manage to complain about how it came out.
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I am really sick and tired of all this complaining and whining and technicalities. It's tearing us apart. You're not realizing that this is not the spirit of VEREG - to create free, fun games for all to enjoy. How can we be a community when we nitpick and fight royally amongst ourselves? If we want VERGE to live, we must seriously re-evaluate our part in it all.

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Yeah, I understand the likes of Quantum Physics and Molecular Theory. What's the point? I just need you to tie my shoes.

Python may be an interesting language, but while you people spend half a year developing we still have to work with this current incomplete stuff. Please make the existing engine complete first before you start any new plans.

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-Devlyn

As there were two, I felt I should clarify...

There is a HUGE difference between porting previous VergeC code to VergeC 2.7 than to port it to Python.

If you are using VergeC, you can write a very simple abstraction layer (as I believe was planned) so that old code would be almost entirely directly usable.

To switch to python would require painstakingly going through all of your code and, not only changing the syntax, but also changing the whole damn format of the code.

To top it off, not only will it be a pain in the ass for developers, but who is going to rewrite all of the tutorials, port all of the scripts, etc to be Python 27 compliant?


On a final note, an arguement that you totally skipped out of intention or error was the fact that there is still no stable Windows build of VERGE. I know I've said it a hundred times before, but it's obvious that you aren't listening so I'll say it again.

PEOPLE USING WINDOWS 2000 CANNOT USE DOS VERSIONS OF VERGE!

are you going to listen? or do I need to say it again? you aren't? Fine.

PEOPLE USING WINDOWS 2000 CANNOT USE DOS VERSIONS OF VERGE!

One more time for charm... hopefully you'll understand it this time...

PEOPLE USING WINDOWS 2000 CANNOT USE DOS VERSIONS OF VERGE!

also,

THERE ARE NO STABLE OPTIONS FOR PEOPLE USING WINDOWS 2000!!

So, if you're using Win2k (like myself and several others are) your only choice is between spending hours upon hours porting your code to Python, using the unstable v2.6.

It's no surprise that a lot of people are chosing neither and just getting pissed because you can't use your old code (that you've spent a lot of time on) with a simple 10-min abstraction layer because the lead coder has fallen victim to fate that has claimed every previous coder before him.

Anyway, I'm through with it...

"Zealots will never to listen to the ideas of another. Only continue blindly in the face of the opposition to their cause by the very ones they are trying to help. Their foolishness is their death."

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Praetor - Strong enough for a man, but made for a woman.

You have no place to tell tSB what to do, or even to get angry. The software is free, and it was provided to you for free.
tSB is using all of v2.7's current code for this, except for the compiler and interpreter.
Also, have you even looked at Python? You have no right to judge if you don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

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- Ear "It's time for the human race to enter the solar system."

Okay, I've calmed down now. Sorry for all the flames I threw around. I tend to care about my project and stuff...:/

You are right with the fact that I cannot tell tSB what to do. I didn't really say that here, but I did in some older posts. I apologize if I was too intrusive (which was probably the case)

I have 'looked' at Python. Not much more. I know it is a very simple and elegant language and I think my game would be easier to script in that language.
However, I've already scripted the majority, so there isn't that much to do left. The main places where I have problems are with the entity engine, and
the lack of some small features there, and the lack of functionality of winmaped.

Python is a good language, but I doubt I would be able to utilize its full potential if the rest of Verge isn't complete and fully working...

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-Devlyn

"Let's finish VC before moving to Python"

That will take months, and when it's done, it'll suck.

Yeah. Good idea. :P

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'Never confuse a single defeat with a final defeat.' -F. Scott Fitzgerald

Python is a good language, but I doubt I would be able to utilize its full potential if the rest of Verge isn't complete and fully working...

'The shortest route between 2 points is a straight line.' - (unknown)

I think that this quote would apply here, devlyn. While I haven't looked very deeply into the V2.6/2.7 codebase, I do think that a good deal of the current bugs/quirks of the V2 engine are probably sitting in the VC engine. If you replace the buggy VC engine with the PROVEN STABLE python engine, you'll fix many of the problems with the current V2. As for re-coding your game, you should be able to do 90% of that by with a simple search/replace in your favorite text editor, and the other 10% in a relatively short period of time. To quote Thrasher: 'Ear ported 5000 LINES of VC to Python in only 3 HOURS.' Porting your code to Python should NOT be a problem.

Arek (James Potts)

(webmaster@verge-net.com)

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