Did I flame anyone? Did I continue to harrass tSB to make my ideal version of Verge after I got a flat out no? Am I the idiot who's been working on a game for four years straight? Am I the one without the life who gets outrageously pissed when someone simply points out why they won't use so and so version? Not really. I've lived and dealt with it. Unfortunately, you and your homeboys seem to have jumped on my tail anytime I do so. What a bunch of lovely characters you are..

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"You're contradicting yourself. Stability is a reason to switch in and of itself. Even v2/v2k/v2k+j suffer from "interesting" quirks that most people would be more than happy to do without. (mikmod butchering mods that it doesn't crash on being no small part of that)."

I don't use v2.6. Never did. Don't plan on to. Don't assume, kid.

"VC suffers from a deplorable lack of data containers. You can use arrays, and one dimensional arrays at that. Sure, they "do the job", but that's like saying that a bicycle can get you across North America. Sure, it does the job, but there are better ways."

So what? It doesn't bother me. Maybe because you're so jolly gee used to having such methods available to you, but I, on the other hand, ain't so overly accustomed to easy management that I'm willing to complain if I can't display my script kiddie skills.

"VC also forces you to use pointers, which means that that v2 is unstable, and it will always be unstable."

*roll eyes* Never thought of it like that. Maybe because I never experienced any instability on my part. Loading up pictures never really crashed Verge2 and if it did, well, I was being an idiot.

"There are a truckload of other mistakes made in VC's design, but I'll spare you the lecture."

Hey, I'm not working with the source code. Feel free to spare what you must.

"I think I've already proven that Python qualifies as a "real programming language", but I'll do it again, for fun. If you search sourceforge.net, you'll notice that there are over a thousand Python projects. That's a 1 to 5 ratio to C projects. Not too bad."

So what? The source code of Dragon Warrior Legend is on Sourceforge.net as well and that's in VC. Maybe I should get that rework that ratio and make VC a real programming language.

"Further, smart programmers are lazy programmers.
Nobody benefits from reinventing the wheel five thousand times."

Duh! While I'm not a laggard, I've never reinvented anything that was already done with VC (unless I thought it was crappy or I would have to break it so much to work with my current setup that I might as well write up my own). Man, tVS was a great place.

"The simple truth is that a wise programmer knows what to remove, what to recode, and what to reuse. Python is loaded with reuseable code, and its syntax actually helps you out, instead of holding you back! Imagine that! I myself have coded several hundred lines of Python, only to find that it works perfectly, without debugging!"

My god, you sound like a one of those people off of the televison, you know, the yokes who try to pawn off badly mangled self-help booklets. Seriously, I know this junk. Don't bother repeating it because I done it, lived it, and saw no point in continuing it.

"How many times has that happened in VC?"

Maybe once, twice, or thrice...Stupid errors on my part but it never took me eons to find them. A minute at most.

"Yes it was. Not entirely, fair enough, but the engine and the language are both at fault."

"I'm sure we all love the way that entity.tx and entity.ty are completely independant of entity.x and entity.y. Or the way that the engine's colours are all messed up if you don't PaletteMorph at startup. (moot if you're in hicolour) Or, have you ever accidentally had a circular #include reference in your VC code? One particularly fun thing to do is to accidentally swap the parameters in fseek. Crashes the engine every time. I've also seen people do some very strange things to make entities behave in a certain way. Do not blame these things on the people using them. The engine should catch these things! Or never allow them to occur!"

Again, never experienced such nutty results. Maybe I should copy and paste some assembly into my VC editor, compile, and see what I get.

"I agree that effort is required to actually get anywhere in just about anything worthwhile, but do not turn a blind eye to v2's many, many flaws. Nobody benefits."

What are you saying? I should be a paranoid little punk and fret over to v2.7 just because my colors would be messed up if I don't use a PaletteMorph correctly or if I rub fseek the wrong way. Give me a break.

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I'm getting the hint that whenever I write anything that intrudes on the security of certain individuals, I get flamed or criticized.

Well, you know what, I'm tired of it. I'm just going to avoid saying such things (unless it's perfectly stated that such criticism is accepted) and allow them some peace of mind.

I have better things to do than write responses to people who are so vibrantly rude (such as Ear and Khross) when someone simply states that they aren't "in" with them. I don't want to waste my time being cursed at when I could be having fun working on my game.

Well, tSB, v2.7 is great and all but I still don't want to use it. I'm happy with v2 and until the day where it proves to be ubertrash or I suddenly like begin to Python, chances are that I will stick to v2 and enjoy it well.

Feh. I'm going back to work.

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All this talk about different mini-versions is going to make my head explode. What's the fastest way to get a moderately stable version of V2.6?

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Life is an RPG. How much experience have you earned?

"I don't use v2.6. Never did. Don't plan on to. Don't assume, kid."

I didn't say v2.6 exclusively was flawed. The points in my post apply to v2 and up. With a few bugfixes, interface tweaks, and a built-in combat system, v1 would be nigh perfect, so it's beyond the scope of this discussion. (if you really want me to, I can go into why)

" So what? It doesn't bother me. Maybe because you're so jolly gee used to having such methods available to you, but I, on the other hand, ain't so overly accustomed to easy management that I'm willing to complain if I can't display my script kiddie skills."
This goes right back to where I said "the idea is to get the most results out of the least amount of work". VC means more work, and for what?

"Loading up pictures never really crashed Verge2 and if it did, well, I was being an idiot."
What about memory leaks or memory corruption due to dynamic image alteration? You don't have to be stupid to make such errors. Neither will ever happen in v2.7. Again, more work for less effort, and no loss in flexibility.

"So what? The source code of Dragon Warrior Legend is on Sourceforge.net as well and that's in VC. Maybe I should get that rework that ratio and make VC a real programming language."

A 1 to 5 ratio when compared to the most commonly used language on the planet is a lot more impressive than 1 to 5500. :P Python is far closer to most peoples' definition of a "real programming language" than VC is. (unless, of course "real programming langauge" means "C", as we all know that C is without flaw :P)
"Duh! While I'm not a laggard, I've never reinvented anything that was already done with VC."
Why wouldn't you prefer a language that leaves you with even less to reinvent, then?

"My god, you sound like a one of those people off of the televison, you know, the yokes who try to pawn off badly mangled self-help booklets. Seriously, I know this junk. Don't bother repeating it because I done it, lived it, and saw no point in continuing it."
Obviously you haven't, if you're voluntarily giving yourself more work than you have to.

"Maybe once, twice, or thrice...Stupid errors on my part but it never took me eons to find them. A minute at most."
It happens to me more often than not. Do not blame those "stupid errors" on yourself. More often than not, they are the language's fault, and not the coder's.
"Again, never experienced such nutty results."

It's happened to other people, though. In particular, the (completely idiotic) distinction between entity.x/y and entity.tx/ty has confused more than its share of people.
"Maybe I should copy and paste some assembly into my VC editor, compile, and see what I get."
Funny you should mention that. Ear has found more than a few bugs in VCC that allow you to do things that you most definitely should not be allowed to do. Another fistful of bugs on the pile.

"What are you saying? I should be a paranoid little punk and fret over to v2.7 just because my colors would be messed up if I don't use a PaletteMorph correctly or if I rub fseek the wrong way. Give me a break."
I am saying that there are a heck of a lot of very good reasons to switch to v2.7. Most of the people who have tried it have told me that they like it. The ones who don't either haven't said anything to me about why, (which is a shame) or they have, in which case I have made adjustments and/or bugfixes, which are infinitely easier to apply, given the more organized codebase.

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"Ignorance is its own reward" -- Proverb

"Leave out the debug stage, and it's just typing to me. Isn't that what programmers are SUPPOSED to enjoy?"

I like designing the system, then implementing it. No small amount of thought goes into coding, and who doesn't like things to work the way they should? Using something because its harder to do the same thing makes little sense to me.

I think you really should give Python a shot, it's a nice langauge to code in.
"A game without any errors is just not fun to make."
I disagree. Less debugging, and more innovating. :)

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"Ignorance is its own reward" -- Proverb

..but face it, I don't have to appease anyone nor do I want your respect. I have followed your rules and manner, only to receive flames that they are usually long sentence fragments containing at least two curses per line. It's a rarity I get an appropriate answer or rebuttal. Rather than give fuel to the snerts, I've decided just to keep from saying what I think and allow people to enjoy themselves. So, it's all good (and more of the oligarchy way you have come to like, ya know, shut up the individual just to keep the group in check).

As for the arguement, it's totally viable.

I haven't broken any rules, pal, and if I did, I haven't blown some people out of the water. Seriously, my few meager insults and criticisms don't hold a trickle to the antics that some of the flamees have pulled.

*sigh* Man....

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. . . scream! Yeesh!

Sorry. ^_^


Perhaps you're right. But then again, perhaps neither of us is right. I merely assume based on what I know, and what I feel. If you get a kick out of having something work for you, I can't say I blame you. I've always been more of "Life's a journey, not the destination" kinda guy anyway. I guess that my point really is this: we should be helping each other, not arguing. I'm pretty sure I've had that one before. Maybe if we would all actually work on MAKING VERGE BETTER things wouldn't be like this. I mean, for example, perhaps instead of flaming Roto and having Roto flame everyone back, we (notice the WE portion) should work on making a version of Verge that implements an improved version of VC. It would make a lot of people happier (like me!). Not to mention it's a pretty good challenge for you to design a solution for. Look at it this way: even if you don't help the community, and even if no one appreciates it but him, it'll shut him up. ^_^ (No offense, Roto. You've helped me A LOT, and I personally don't mind anything that anyone says). I would be willing to help and lend my pitiful knowledge to any such project, or any development project in general. I want to help the community because I enjoy Verge. If that would help the community in general, no matter in what miniscule a manner, I think it's worth doing. I only wish that they had paying positions for this kind of stuff; it would make MY job search a whole lot easier.

CypherAlmasy

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Life is an RPG. How much experience have you earned?

Look at the size of this thread! I'm honored to have started such a conversation. If only more of it were more. . . civilized. ::sigh::

CypherAlmasy

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Life is an RPG. How much experience have you earned?

Anything that screams the possibiliy of another Blue Star's "Tears of Vengance" demo wins my vote of approval.

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