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The 'death' of Verge... Displaying 21-25 of 25 total.
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Rayner
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Celas made a good point: why not combine VC and Python in some fashion? I suggest this: Python is the base language, the really low-level stuff. Then someone (or some team) puts together a VC emulation library that emulates all the major VC functions in Python.
First and foremost, you made some great points. However, no offense, but comments like these are why people are bashing Python and thinking it will destroy VERGE. Nobody seems to understand how it will work in VERGE and think it will be some large coding effort. It will still be SCRIPTING. All of VC's major functions will be built into Python:
character = Entity(5,5,"joe.chr")
Will do the same thing in Python and VERGE. The only difference is you'll have to indent your code, define functions differently, and you don't have to type declare your variables. ALL of which will help newbies script better. You don't need to worry about classes and polymorphism and all that crap. The power is thre for those who want to use it, you definently don't have to. Don't think of Python as a completely new programming language. VPython is just an extended VC with some small syntax changes.
P.S. I'm loving all the flame war stuff, it's adding much needed interaction on the boards and IRC of the community :)
Posted on 2001-07-02 09:45:32
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Praetor
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if you're going to change anyway, then change the name as well... if you're changing BUGGABLOW instead of VERGE then VERGE isn't changing and I win, fucker...
Praetor - Strong enough for a man, but made for a woman.
Posted on 2001-07-02 10:05:20
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andy
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TIP: You'll probably convince people more if you present a rational argument, and avoid vulgarity.
'Never confuse a single defeat with a final defeat.' -F. Scott Fitzgerald
Posted on 2001-07-02 13:58:56
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Chakka
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I find your thoughts very... interesting. Uninformed, senseless, knee-jerked, and crude, but... interesting none the less.
First of all, what right do you have to criticise the work that tSB has done voluntarily, on his own free time, with little to no help? He has given you countless engines and engine betas, he is constantly helping people to use verge, and he is open minded about new ideas for the future of verge. It's his work, if you are so scared (you heard me, scared) of a new, powerful, effiecient engine, then DON'T USE IT. Better yet, why don't you code a Verge3 that still uses VC, uses no libraries, is completely stable, and superior to what ever tSB works up? Until you do that, you have no right to complain. This isn't hard.
Now, concerning your thoughts:
"this Python thing is nothing more than pre-made libraries wired together with some Win32 code... He used DirectX for the graphics, LibPNG/ZLIB for the image loaders, MikMod for the sound/music, and now Python for the language. It's become bloated, fragmented (you now need a ton of library files to even get it to work) and is still not that stable."
Boo hoo. Is there something wrong with using libraries? Last time I checked, libraries were created so that other people wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel. If you don't want to use other people's code, why use verge at all? Verge is merely OTHER PEOPLE'S ENGINE. Whether it's made by tSB, Vecna, or whoever else wants to, it's their code. So anyone else who uses it isn't using all their own code. So what's wrong with libraries?
"My biggest arguement, however, takes me to the biological definition of a species: "two lifeforms are of the same species when they are able to mate and produce a viable offspring" "
If the newest verge has evolved from its original state, what's wrong with that? humans evolved from apes. Does that make humans inferior to apes, since they're no longer true apes?
"However, you cannot take any portion of V1 OR V2 code and place it directly into a v2.7 game. This makes all of the previously made scripts as well as 90% of the tutorials and articles useless for v2.7 games. The file formats have even been rewritten and aren't compatible..."
Please become informed before making statements such as this. VPython and VC are incredibly similar. I beleive someone on IRC ported ~5000 lines of code from VC to VPython in under an hour (forgive me if this figure is inaccurate, but it was a high figure like that). Also, please feel free to visit www.python.org which is the official python website. Click on tutorial, and whether or not you read the whole thing just click through until you get to the table of contents (2nd page i beleive). The amount of _official_ documentation for python is not only more than that of verge, but it is also written by professionals, and it has succesfully taught hundreds if not thousands of people to use python. Can the same be said of the VERGE Docs, which, when they are accurate, are difficult to read and completely illegible to a newbie?
"Sure, VERGE was the grand-daddy of v2.7, but you don't see games like Unreal Tournament being called Wolfenstein 3D v9.394, do you?"
Actually, yes you do. They're these crazy little things I like to call "sequels". Take the king's quest series. 1-8 have been made, I beleive, starting out from a dos "game" and going to a first/third person, 3D action game that takes 10 minutes (without exageration) to load a single level on my computer, a K6-2 400Mhz. Are KQ1 and KQ8 anything near each other? No. Yet they're still called King's Quest...
"So, the point of this post is that tSB shouldn't even consider calling it V3, whether vec wants to let him use it or not. It's not VERGE and there is no reason to call it such. Call it Reap, call it Spank, call it whatever you will, but stop trying to gain popularity for the engine by saying it's the latest version of VERGE and start trying to get popularity through the actual performance of the engine. "
In case you haven't noticed, people are attracted to v2.7 not because of the name VERGE smacked on it, but because it's faster, easier, more stable, and it has more potential than any other VERGE version before it. If anything, I would say that v2.7 is enhancing the image of VERGE, not the other way around.
"v2.7 is not VERGE, and this VERGEr doesn't want to be associated with it any longer."
Fine. No one is forcing you to bow down on your knees and worship the merciful god of Python. If you don't want to use v2.7, then DON'T. You have no reason to start flaming tSB or the rest of the community for voluntarily trying to improve verge while you sit on your but complaining that other people's free work isn't good enough for your majesty.
Chakka Shok, Chakka Cor!
Posted on 2001-07-03 00:16:29
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TheDeveloper
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VERGE was a RPGCE that featured an original and easy to use scripting language. It was small. It was independant. It was stable.
Exactly when was this? I must have missed this version because every single version of VERGE I have used in the past 5 years has been unstable or had a major bug in it that caused it to not work on at least my system.
this Python thing is nothing more than pre-made libraries wired together with some Win32 code... He used DirectX for the graphics, LibPNG/ZLIB for the image loaders, MikMod for the sound/music, and now Python for the language. It's become bloated, fragmented (you now need a ton of library files to even get it to work) and is still not that stable.
Every version of VERGE I've seen has been no more than premade utilities and functions not even wired together in any cohesive form. Besides, Vec used directx for the graphics of WinV1 as well as MikMod for both dos versions of VERGE as well as WinV1. The fragmentation will be cleared up as this next version becomes more and more complete. And if it were stable then it really wouldn't be VERGE anymore :p
My biggest arguement, however, takes me to the biological definition of a species: "two lifeforms are of the same species when they are able to mate and produce a viable offspring"
First off there's no such thing as a biological definition of species. Species is merely part of a classification system developed by Charles Lineaus(sp?). It is fairly arbitrary and has undergone revisions over time. Secondly I doubt very seriously that a St. Bernard and a Chiwawa could mate and produce viable offspring. If the chiwawa were the female she'd explode before the fetuses were fully developed, and I have a very hard time picturing a male chiwawa impregnating a female St. Bernard successfully. But yet both are not only concidered dogs but are the same species Canis familiaris(sp?) Not to mention that horses and donkeys can breed to produce mules, which are viable IMO. Unless of course, by viable you mean that this offspring has to be able to breed.
, even though V1 and V2 were really rather different, language wise, you could still, through the use of function sets and what not, copy one chunk of code from a V1 game and place it in a V2 game. To a small extent, this also works the other way around.
No you couldn't. Not without first writing extensive sets of vc2 to emulate what vc1 did by nature.
However, you cannot take any portion of V1 OR V2 code and place it directly into a v2.7 game. This makes all of the previously made scripts as well as 90% of the tutorials and articles useless for v2.7 games. The file formats have even been rewritten and aren't compatible...
No it means that you have to do what you did when v2 came out, port your code. You have to use objects, functions, etc. to make the python code do what the v2 code did, just like you had to write functions to make v2 code do what v1 code did. As for image formats, I seem to remember the same thing happening when v2 came out. All the code, chrs, etc. that people had made had to be converted to work with v2. The only thing that remained the same was the vsp format.
In my opinion, that should be more than enough reason to declare v2.7 to be a non-related species and grounds for it to relinquish the VERGE title altogether.
I don't agree here, but I do personally feel that it shouldn't be called v2.7 but something more like VERGE PE (python edition) or some such thing to distinguish it from the "official" versions of VERGE.
Sure, VERGE was the grand-daddy of v2.7, but you don't see games like Unreal Tournament being called Wolfenstein 3D v9.394, do you?
No, but what about say, Final Fantasy X? that has had nothing to do any of the previous FF's (except maybe for some reused code from ff9)
So, the point of this post is that tSB shouldn't even consider calling it V3, whether vec wants to let him use it or not. It's not VERGE and there is no reason to call it such. Call it Reap, call it Spank, call it whatever you will, but stop trying to gain popularity for the engine by saying it's the latest version of VERGE and start trying to get popularity through the actual performance of the engine.
He is calling it VERGE because that is what birthed it. All Linux distros are called Linux regardless of wether or not some or even groups users believe it to be the "one true Linux" (the same is true of denominations in Chrisitanity)
v2.7 is not VERGE, and this VERGEr doesn't want to be associated with it any longer
So don't be, proclaim loudly thy distaste for it (as you've done here) and we won't associate you with it. Lots of people do the same with various Linux distros such as RedHat, etc.
Also, most of the problems you've mentioned also occured when v2 came out, but yet we still called it VERGE.
-The Developer "[A review of ff4(2)]Aaaahhh... great game, great characters, great story, great music, BAAAAAAAD graphics."
Posted on 2001-07-03 02:23:58
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