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The 'death' of Verge... Displaying 1-20 of 25 total.
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ashground
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In the last day of the VergeSource, there was a lot of discussion about the so-called 'death' of Verge. And since VS is down, I'll respond here.
Verge is not dead. Rather, it keeps evolving, and we split into two groups--those who want to change with each new version, and those who want to stay with what they know and love. Now, I'll be honest--I'm still using Verge 2.01. And why shouldn't I? I haven't needed anything in any newer versions--2.01 does every I need it to do. Now, most people are under the impression that they have to keep up or stay out. This is especially the case with Python. Because Verge is switching to Python, everyone assumes that they need to learn Python to stay part of the Verge community. This is not the case. In fact, I'm sure there are still several Verge 1 copies kicking around and making their users very happy. And why shouldn't it?
When the Python version in finalised, I'll gladly download it and use it. Mostly because I haven't updated my copy of Verge in a year. I've downloaded all the newer versions--but if I don't need them, why should I use them?
Ultimately, with the death of the VergeSource, people are saying that the Verge community is dead. And indeed, there WAS a golden age of Verge. I remember it well. Oodles of demos, a funky blue-and-black Verge-rpg.com... it was good. Since then, lots of people have bailed, either sick of us or sick of Verge. Mostly, those were people who felt left out when a new version came out.
What we need to do is unite all the Verge users, no matter what version their using. We have to offer continued support for most versions of Verge out there. We need to stamp out a couple versions that we weren't too proud of. And then, we need to take the ultimate step.
Verge 1 was DOS. It ran using VC. It was neat.
Verge 2 was DOS, then became windows. It was running using VC... now it's Python. It was cool, but syntax kept changing.
What we need to do is make a new Verge standard. Yes, shudder in fear at what I'm suggesting.
Verge. Running under Windows. Highcolor. Using Python. With a third-party IDE (thanks to Cyberdude).
Maybe even with an official logo.
Verge3.
Maybe it's time. Verge has definitely changed since version 2.0. So let's make a NEW version. We're so close already. We could launch it along with a new website dedicated to helping newbies and providing a community... maybe we'd call it Reap :)
So, what do you think? 'Specially Speedy. Is my head in the clouds? Or could we return to that golden age?
Let the debates begin.
Posted on 2001-07-01 15:42:16
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bahamut
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Dead? What do you mean "dead"? If the whole community will go down, then how am I going to make a good RPG?
Well?
Posted on 2001-07-01 16:12:49
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andy
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It's been made very clear that the name 'verge 3' is strictly off limits for all but vecna and company. I can't make it.
Other than that, I'm aiming for exactly that. ^_^
'Never confuse a single defeat with a final defeat.' -F. Scott Fitzgerald
Posted on 2001-07-01 16:37:21
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ashground
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We can't keep calling it Verge 2.x, because it's gone quite beyond V2, hasn't it? So, what would we call it instead? Something as mudane as Purge, cos it's Python? Nah, too cheesy. How 'bout Vergin? That was my personal favorite. Any other suggestions?
Posted on 2001-07-01 17:27:00
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Praetor
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I don't think that it should be called Verge3 (or even VERGE at all) for one major reason:
It isn't VERGE...
VERGE was a RPGCE that featured an original and easy to use scripting language. It was small. It was independant. It was stable.
this Python thing is nothing more than pre-made libraries wired together with some Win32 code... He used DirectX for the graphics, LibPNG/ZLIB for the image loaders, MikMod for the sound/music, and now Python for the language. It's become bloated, fragmented (you now need a ton of library files to even get it to work) and is still not that stable.
My biggest arguement, however, takes me to the biological definition of a species: "two lifeforms are of the same species when they are able to mate and produce a viable offspring"
Now, even though V1 and V2 were really rather different, language wise, you could still, through the use of function sets and what not, copy one chunk of code from a V1 game and place it in a V2 game. To a small extent, this also works the other way around. The end result is that the code compiles and runs producing a viable game in much the same way that, for a sexually reproducing species, the sperm and egg combine and the result is, all things being equal, a viable embryo.
However, you cannot take any portion of V1 OR V2 code and place it directly into a v2.7 game. This makes all of the previously made scripts as well as 90% of the tutorials and articles useless for v2.7 games. The file formats have even been rewritten and aren't compatible...
In my opinion, that should be more than enough reason to declare v2.7 to be a non-related species and grounds for it to relinquish the VERGE title altogether.
Sure, VERGE was the grand-daddy of v2.7, but you don't see games like Unreal Tournament being called Wolfenstein 3D v9.394, do you?
It's a similar idea with a similar objective, but it wasn't made by any of the same people, and it doesn't feature any code linking it to VERGE...
So, the point of this post is that tSB shouldn't even consider calling it V3, whether vec wants to let him use it or not. It's not VERGE and there is no reason to call it such. Call it Reap, call it Spank, call it whatever you will, but stop trying to gain popularity for the engine by saying it's the latest version of VERGE and start trying to get popularity through the actual performance of the engine.
v2.7 is not VERGE, and this VERGEr doesn't want to be associated with it any longer.
Praetor - Strong enough for a man, but made for a woman.
Posted on 2001-07-01 17:30:41
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Praetor
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get off this "let's call it something that sounds like VERGE to show that it's related" kick and think of something original...
Praetor - Strong enough for a man, but made for a woman.
Posted on 2001-07-01 17:32:16
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Rayner
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Good points but some are slightly flawed (at least in my eyes- please keep in mind this is merely opinion).
a) Whenever there's an error in your game 90% of the time the culprit is VC. VC has always been screwy and has only been manageable in pure V2 and pure V1. I don't mean those errors in syntax or function use a coder makes. I mean those errors the creator of the code made that couldn't really be fixed without the engine coder having to hack the code. After looking at V1 and (to a much smaller extent) a version of V2 the VC handling looked very hacked- it was waiting to collapse or for another coder to give up on it. Python is the best chance out of this predicament. Even tho McGrue disagreed with it's use he admitted "It's probably best for the community and VERGE".
b) Not that many files are needed for it to run. You need python21.dll, libpng.dll (which has nothing to do with Python), and zlib.dll (also has nothing to do with it). Think of Python21.dll as an exchange for system.xvc.
c) I agree with you that VERGE has lost it's feeling of a small compact game creator to a game programming library (not really, but I understand what you mean). But this can be remedied through true-IDEs (not hacks that just pull a bunch of programs together) and Standard Libraries- both of which are being worked on. The problem can be fixed without sticking with VC.
d) MIDAS, DirectX, LibPng, etc are needed for VERGE to support the latest/best in graphics and sounds. I don't see your point on mentioning it since it most likely would have been included in any newer version of VERGE.
e) Looking at a Python script and a VC script I don't see THAT much of a change. You don't define variables, functions are defined with "def", and you use indenting for statement grouping. All of which are probably better for a newbie scripter. Python is more of SCRIPTING than CODING. I try to remember that when I think VERGE gets too bloated. :) The simplicity is still there, but there is also POWER there for us stronger coders. We just have to make sure to hide the use of that power from newbies as not to scare them.
Posted on 2001-07-01 20:30:32
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Ear
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1) VERGE 1 was not stable.
2) VERGE 2 was not easy to use.
3) Python is very readable and once you've learned it, it's very easy and fast to use.
4) Any intelligent coder can convert code for one language he knows to another.
5) Python has tons of documentation that makes it easy to learn. The documentation is superior to the documentation for any version of VERGE, including all tutorials written for it COMBINED.
6) How does using many proven, standard and stable libraries make something unstable? Do you think that /you/ could code a more stable PNG library than LibPNG?
7) You will be able to easily convert all v1 and v2 file formats to v2.7's AND BACK.
8) tSB does not have plans change its name to VERGE 3.
9) Reap isn't the name of a planned engine, it's the name of a community site.
10) Most of the popularity COMES from the stability and features of the new engine. Have you tried v2.7? It runs flawlessly and speedily too.
11) ...and on a final note. Since when are you a VERGEr anymore? I thought you left. So make up your mind. It's not like anyone wants you here.
- Ear "It's time for the human race to enter the solar system."
Posted on 2001-07-01 20:40:52
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Celas
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Where is all of your anger coming from? You have a few good points but most of them are false about v2.7.
this Python thing is nothing more than pre-made
libraries wired together with some Win32 code... He
What would you rather see, something that is easy to script or something that requires a masters in CS to code? I really hate to say it, but python is a better choice than VC.
used DirectX for the graphics, LibPNG/ZLIB for the
image loaders, MikMod for the sound/music, and now
Python for the language. It's become bloated,
Its not bloated at all. Infact my base, OH S&%#@ I need a empty copy of v2.7 is under 500k zipped. Less files are required to get it working than v2.01. FYI MikMod was used as the v1 sound engine. And I do ask you, do you know the math required to write a PNG loader from scratch? All of these things here I feel are INVALID.
fragmented (you now need a ton of library files to
even get it to work) and is still not that stable.
This is not bloated. If you want to see bloated and stable see Linux/Windows2000/or any OS running CDE.
However, you cannot take any portion of V1 OR V2 code
and place it directly into a v2.7 game. This makes
all of the previously made scripts as well as 90% of
the tutorials and articles useless for v2.7 games.
The file formats have even been rewritten and aren't
compatible...
Did you bitch when office 97 broke office 95 compatiblity? Wait a bit and we and converters will come out. Most of the scripts form VC2 are easy to convert to python. Infact I converted some math intensive code into LESS lines than VC and it runs faster!
Sure, VERGE was the grand-daddy of v2.7, but you
don't see games like Unreal Tournament being called
Wolfenstein 3D v9.394, do you?
Sure we do. Unreal - UT - Unreal 2
Quake - Quake 2 - Quake 3 Arena
Doom - Doom 2 - Whatever the new doom is called
I don't see your point here.
Here is my suggestion, go get laied or find a hobby that doesn't make you angery. I don't have to like everything that gos on. The fact that you don't like it doesn't mean it needs to be changed just becuase of you! Personally, I would like the ablilty to mix VC and Python (much like ASM can be used inline in C). And I really don't feel like spending any more time replying to your anger.
-Celas
Posted on 2001-07-01 20:44:08
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andy
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What the hell are you smoking?
VERGE was a RPGCE that featured an original and easy to use scripting language. It was small. It was independant. It was stable.
v2.7 wasn't meant to be a tool of the arcane. It's meant to be every inch as easy as any other engine out there, while still providing an impressive amount of flexibility. Good luck doing that with either VC, or hard coding things in C. :P It's unstable because it's unfinished. Shame on me. (it's still better than v2.6 by a long shot, and let's not forget v2's wonderful random mikmod-inspired GPFs)
this Python thing is nothing more than pre-made libraries wired together with some Win32 code... He used DirectX for the graphics, LibPNG/ZLIB for the image loaders, MikMod for the sound/music, and now Python for the language. It's become bloated, fragmented (you now need a ton of library files to even get it to work) and is still not that stable.
v2.7 is, if you separate my code from third party code, well over ten thousand lines. The source zip is a megabyte. Yup, not much there at all.
How do you do anything graphically intense in win32 AT ALL without using a prepackaged library? (same for audio and anything else related to hardware I/O) Next up, libpng? What, I should code a PNG loader from scratch? Yeah, good idea, especially since libpng already does it, and it'd take me months to write my own. Same with mikmod. (which vecna uses, by the way, shame on him too) Those DLL files can be statically linked, and I agree, they should be, but again, shame on me for not being finished.
My biggest arguement, however, takes me to the biological definition of a species: "two lifeforms are of the same species when they are able to mate and produce a viable offspring"
v2.7 is a columnation in everything I've seen done right (and so very wrong!) in v1, v2, and even Sphere. Your own definition fails to encompass evolution.
This makes all of the previously made scripts as well as 90% of the tutorials and articles useless for v2.7 games. The file formats have even been rewritten and aren't compatible...
Bzzt, wrong again! There is a logical methodology behind all of those scripts, some of which is still very useful, once translated, others are useless merely because v2.7 can do it internally. Articles are of the same nature. Don't tell me that what someone might of VC is completely irrelevant if they should switch to Python, because we both know full well that the mental methodology behind coding is the key to it all. A few syntax changes means that one would merely have to relearn a few things. Such a person is not at square one by any stretch of the imagination.
v2.7 doesn't load most v2 legacy formats, it's true. That's temporary. The map editor already loads and saves the new CHR file format, (it loads the old ones and it'll save the old one soon as well) moreover, because I used that evil shared code stuff, the compression is beyond anything v2's RLE could hope for. (a 15k 16bpp CHR can be saved as a 32bpp v2.7 CHR that amounts to 5k) It'll load all old formats, and save them as well.
v2.7 is not VERGE, and this VERGEr doesn't want to be associated with it any longer.
You've never been forced to use anything I've ever made, or vecna for that matter. Ear put it quite soundly when he said "You have no right to be angry over something that you aren't entitled to." I do this for fun. If you want to use it, all the power to you, if not, oh well, that's fine too.
I've run out of arguments to rebut, so I'm going to resume my happy coding binge. Bye!
'Never confuse a single defeat with a final defeat.' -F. Scott Fitzgerald
Posted on 2001-07-01 20:50:19
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Khross
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All you do is moan and complain about an engine you admitedly will never use.
You posted at tVS that you don't care about VERGE or the community, and that you're "pointing and laughing as it spirals down."
Why are you still here posting? Do us all a favor and leave.
Posted on 2001-07-01 20:59:45
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andy
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'Never confuse a single defeat with a final defeat.' -F. Scott Fitzgerald
Posted on 2001-07-01 21:03:55
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Thrasher
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You seem to think that just because it wasn't made by the same people, that makes it not in the same category. I consider something to be categorized if:
* It has the same purpose
* It is similarly structured
* It produces the same result
And if you take those definitions, v2 shouldn't be compared to v1. It was an entire reworking of the v1 system and was totally different. Also, as tSB pointed out below, v1 used MikMod. Does that mean v1 wasn't Verge? Nope, didn't think so.
They also used other libraries, such as VESA. OH NO THEY DIDN'T REINVENT THE WHEEL. Evolution is about doing what is necessary to achieve transcendence. Since v2.7 serves the same purpose as the other Verges (to serve as a basic engine allowing map scripting), it should be called Verge.
In addition, I haven't seen many people coming to Verge because tSB says it's the newest version - namely, NONE. You seem to be totally oblivious to why people are using Python v2.7. The reason is this: IT'S BETTER - survival of the fittest.
To strike something more personal to you, remember that company employee database you coded based on its first incarnation? Well, gee, think about it.
Yeah, I understand the likes of Quantum Physics and Molecular Theory. What's the point? I just need you to tie my shoes.
Posted on 2001-07-01 21:09:18
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invicticide
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When I saw "The 'death' of Verge" post, I broke a grin like a kid at Christmas. This thing has "flame war" written all over it, as Shlock so succinctly pointed out.
I haven't really used v2.7 because, as Speedy says, it's not finished. I don't have much use for stuff that's unfinished, because it's a pain. But I'm not knocking v2.7. I think it'll be what Verge aspired to in the beginning... when it's done.
What I *do* know is that Python is a hell of a lot more object-oriented than VC, and apparently a good deal more stable. Is there some reason Praetor insists on knocking Python?
I'll be honest, here. When I found out that Verge was evolving into a new language, I was disgusted... at first. The prospect of learning a new language was about as attractive as Janet Reno in a thong. But, as has been pointed out a few times in this thread, any intelligent coder can convert his code from one language to another, and if Python is as spiffy as it's being made out to be, the conversion will be a cinch.
Celas made a good point: why not combine VC and Python in some fashion? I suggest this: Python is the base language, the really low-level stuff. Then someone (or some team) puts together a VC emulation library that emulates all the major VC functions in Python. That way people who are comfortable with VC have it, but with the stability of Python and the option of using Python to expand their code.
I don't know if this would work, but if there was some way to allow the Python compiler to recognize and process both Python *and* VC syntaxes...? Probably not, but it was worth a shot.
Now here's what I think of Shlock's suggestions, and the eventual direction of Verge.
Speedy's work is quickly turning into its own GCE, I think. Different language, different formats... the signs are there. It's evolving from Verge, and I think that's cool, because Verge has always been the best damn GCE out there, and now something better is coming from it.
I agree that v2.7 is basically just a bunch of libraries that form a base for a game. But I also agree that a well-made IDE can solve all those problems.
Ideally, I'd like to see a *team* get together and create a single, *official* IDE for the new engine. When someone downloads Speedy's GCE (well, that's what I'm calling it for a while :) they get the libraries and this all-in-one IDE.
I suggest that Cyberdude head up this team, and build off his excellent VEW editor, which I have become a worshipper of :) Think VEW, plus WinMapEd, plus ACE (yes, the CHR creator from V1!) plus a few extras to make everything smoother all around, and you've got yourself a hell of an IDE that's really easy to use.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: instead of making *new* technology, we need to focus on making our existing technology more stable and easier to use. A creative developer can emulate any SNES RPG in every iteration of V2 I've ever used. I'm quite sure someone could recreate Chrono Trigger in v2.6 and no one would know the difference.
My point is that Verge *can* make the games we want. So what else does it need to do? We just need to make the process easier.
I'd like to see a new dev team appear that's totally devoted to the new GCE. We've got some people in this community now that are really self-motivated and get things done, Speedy in particular. Such a dev team could, in theory, pop out an early build of the IDE in a few months, tweak and refine as Speedy builds more into the new engine, and simultaneously keep up a simple but useful website. Get a new message board, an active file archive similar to TVS, and weekly updates.
I know that's a lot to take in, but I have the mind of a designer and I could write pages and pages about my concept for the perfect GCE--and it's not so far off from what we're heading toward now. If anyone's interested in forming a new dev team for the IDE, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE post your intentions.
To Cyberdude: I don't know how concrete your ideas for VEW are, but if you'd like some in-depth design ideas, don't hesitate to ask. I have a wealth of ideas I'm dying to see implemented into Verge... or whatever it ends up being.
To Speedy: Thanks for actually working hard! It's nice to see continued progress on something like this. It's the kind of enthusiasm I haven't seen since the early days of V1.
To Praetor: If you're just trying to start a flame war, you should be banned from the boards. Otherwise, I think you'd be better off presenting your ideas and not making personal slams against people in the process. Maybe you wouldn't get so many flames in return :)
To everyone: Verge is evolving. If you don't like the new direction, grab v2.6 and Verge away. If you're hip with the evolution, let us know. This community's going to split soon, especially if anyone takes *my* advice. I really don't want to see any talent disappear in the process.
P.S. Shlock, that was a very well-written post, complete with mood and suspense. I'm imressed :)
P.P.S. Being a bit of an oldbie myself, I remember a time when the VRPG boards were overcome by the greatest flame war in all recorded history. I believe some 60 flames were posted in all, and my co-developer was mysteriously banned from the boards for several months--apparently a victim of the fallout. It all started when some stranger showed up and knocked Verge as an inferior engine, preaching the goodness of (gasp!) hard-coded C++. Perhaps Praetor wishes to beat this record? I, for one, would find a flame war of such vicious magnitude quite entertaining :)
That is all.
--Invicticide
(The long-winded bastard from the west :)
Posted on 2001-07-01 23:02:05
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Sablom
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It's been awhile. For those that don't remember, I've been around awhile. Not forever, but longer than most. Let me just add to this thread, rant abit, and overall just... tell you what I think is wrong.
To tell you the truth, I haven't used Verge since it fractured. I went away for a weekend (at least it felt like that) and came back to find at least 3 types of verges, all boasting there best, and dieing quickly. I'm sorry, but I don't feel like dealing with something called v2k+j, whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. (no offense to the authors of that spinoff) But I've been keeping with the scene. I feel I'm a VERGEr even if I don't produce anything because I'm part of this community. I think that tSB is probably doing the best thing with verge that I've seen in a long time. My only qualm with it is that it could turn into just a rpg creator suite _for_ Python, not a rpgcs that _uses_ python. Anyway, if I use python, it would be to script something for Blender, not Verge, just because that has my interest more these days :)
Maybe I should get to a topic more than do a stream of conscienceness rant on verge. Ah, here's one, the one that I took most notice of from Schlock's post: the disintegration of the scene. I don't want to see that happening, which it will if people can't get over tSB's addition to verge. Yes, it's not done by Vecna, but have you seen him here? I haven't. Has he been updating and making verge better? No. In fact, didn't the verge dev. team put the source out for verge so that others can make verge better? Looking back at my old Verge1 docs, which probably haven't moved from there spot since I got it the first time, I notice only Hahn and Vecna's footprints. The later vergec has Aen, NichG, and Ric's names, but the two who founded verge are almost distant memories besides Vecna's name imbedded into verge. I think we _should_ evolve for the better. I don't think the community would hurt by having verge being passed from vecna's hands to tSB's, expecially when one doesn't support it anymore. The thing that I would hate, that I would fear, is the distruction of the scene. I don't want to see two camps, one for V1 and V2 and cripplets, (little crippled offspring :) the other tSB's creation. It actually hurts to have to think of Verge ever spliting, and I don't know what camp I'd go to. I wish Praetor didn't become so jaded all of a sudden. It seems as though he is the biggest opposition here.
I don't know if I completed my train of thought in that last paragraph, but I'm moving on. Verge-rpg needs to be updated. It needs a public news posting ala ojuice.net, hell, it needs to be ojuice.net, but for the verge scene instead of the demo, although verge seems to be going the way of the demo scene. (articles of 'the demo scene is dead!' 'Amiga4ever!' and 'We can't move on to 32-bit color, 3d things! no, we must be 8, no 4 bit color! Pixel everything!' and complaint about new and innovative things... sounds familiar...)
Well, seeing as this isn't really helping anyone, I will finish. My mind is not with me at the moment. If any of this is incoherent, I duly apologize.
With a tear in my eye,
-Sablom
And the cow says MOOO! -Fisher Price See'N'Say
Posted on 2001-07-02 00:46:04
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Sablom
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No offense to Vecna, or anyone else of the original dev crew. Without you we wouldn't have verge. If you've felt anything I've said is a personal attack on you, its been through my ignorance only, for I feel bitter or angry at none.
-Sablom
And the cow says MOOO! -Fisher Price See'N'Say
Posted on 2001-07-02 00:50:12
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ashground
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But yet, it still IS VERGE. It's the same source. It's built with the same heart. And like Sablom said, when's the last time we've heard from Vecna? Let's admit it, if Verge with Python isn't Verge, then Verge hasn't been Verge since version one. We've all seen lots of changes. Maybe it's a departure from Verge because it's becoming largely a third-party effort. But it's the same spirit, the same heart, and the same community. And I for one would stand behind it 100%.
Posted on 2001-07-02 02:22:27
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ashground
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I thought you were the one who said that we should stop 'changing' Verge. And now you suggest departing from Verge altogether?
Honestly, you're asking to be flamed. I'm not saying this as an insult, but you're going to get burnt badly on this board if you keep trying to slam everything we say.
Posted on 2001-07-02 02:27:15
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ashground
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The underground Vergeway, of course! Join me... I can show you message boards where Verge users are loved and respected... you don't have to deal with the evilness any more!
Okay, so this board ain't so bad. But I'm feeling kooky.
Posted on 2001-07-02 02:31:03
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cyberdude
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I can do anything from Windows apps to qBASIC graphics to 3D worlds with the tools I have on my simple laptop. You name it, I do it. Though I'm not planning on writing the VERGE engine, I will be more than willing to do the entire graphical front-end, whatever that may be. Infact, I'm about to release a new version of VEW which has a project manager, which lists all the files in the project in order, and you double-click it to edit it. So far, you can double-click "VC,CFG,..." and it opens a new window with the contents in to edit, or you can double click ".MAP" files to edit maps, or you can double-click ".MOD,.XM,.S3M" files, and it loads a MOD player I programmed right into the thing!
Don't you just love VEW2?
my email is cyberdude9341133@cs.com so whoever whenever...
btw, I forgot my password, so I'll just let you know now, and if you see a post with like Cyberdude1, and you don't think it's me, email me and I'll conferm.
Posted on 2001-07-02 05:40:05
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