Class vs. Skill based
Displaying 1-20 of 29 total.
12 next
Please enter a numerical value for the importance of this sticky.
Enter 0 to unsticky.
locke

Hi there. Thought I'd continue the system design conversations, and follow up with some thoughts about class-based character definition vs. skill-based. Here's what I mean (and some examples - your terminology might differ):

Class-based is what we see in most classic RPG games. I'm thinking the old Bard's Tale, Wizardry, and more recently in games like EverQuest and Diablo II. This is by far the most common approach to character definition, though many variations have come about recently. It generally works like this: When you create a character you get to choose a class, or role that the character will play. Sometimes called a profession or a job, the character's class dictates what skills and abilities he/she/it has, and also often, how the character is played. For example, if a player likes to be up front, swinging a huge axe, he/she/it would probably choose a warrior, brawler, monk, or other "melee class" that leads to skills like "kick", "punch", and "grapple". The melee class path would also help dictate what "stat" points should be raised - strength instead of intelligence, for example.

Skill-based systems are less often seen, but have started to attract the attention of developers and players alike. This is a system which allows the player to dictate the character's abilities by choosing from a complete list of skills or abilities, rather than a "class-limited" list. Games that have used such a system include Star Wars Galaxies (to some extent), Asheron's Call, and Dungeon Siege. There aren't many pure examples of this, but the general idea is to allow the player to play the game the way they want, with no limitations on what they can or cannot do. If you want to have a fireball-casting Monk, go for it. If you want a rocket-firing repair droid, why not? This is the land of open-ended gameplay.

Class-based systems use roles to define the player's gameplay experience, while skill-based systems let the player define the role and the gameplay. The latter is far more open-ended, but can lead to some complex balancing issues, while the former has it's own balancing issues involved with the limitations of one class over another. The skill-based system often leads players down the path of hybrid characters. They try to have a little of everything. Who wouldn't want a warrior that can teleport, cast healing spells on him/her/itself, AND pick pockets and open locks? This often leads to shallow but wide skill trees, and characters that can't hang because they only have the basics from several "catagories" of skills. This can pose a problem with pace and (again) balance. So it's important to set some guidelines. A totally open-ended list of skills, with every skill available out of the gate probably isn't the way to handle it. A catagorized skill-tree system might be better. Breaking down the skills into catagories ("Magic", "Crafting", "Psionics", etc) and then producing trees where one skill leads to another, helps guide the player towards more powerful skills of each type. If they want to spend the time becoming a master magic user AND a master house builder, they can do that... it just takes them longer to master both than someone who always chooses from the "Melee" skill list.

There are many ways to organize and "charge" for skills, and some of that was covered in our last discussion... so I'll leave that as an exercise for you to think about. But in my opinion, some of the most interesting ideas stem from the Skill-based system described here. We all know (and use) the Class-based system. I think it's time that we, as designers, try to find ways to allow the player to help define the character, the character's role, and provide guidance throughout the process. I believe that players want choice, and if given the opportunity, would like to guide the character development beyond walls of pre-defined roles and gameplay styles. Again, I vote for choice. ;)

How about you folks?

Thanks for reading.

-locke

Posted on 2004-03-23 18:15:04 (last edited on 2004-03-23 18:16:31)

KilloZapit

The biggest problem with classes is that most of the time every character is forced into whatever roles are thought up beforehand. That is unless each character has a unique class or classes are semi-customizable (like Daggerfall). That each character should be good or bad at cretin things is okay, but I don't know if classes are the answer.

Posted on 2004-03-23 22:37:16

Troupe

Locke > *

Posted on 2004-03-23 23:19:11

locke

Locke > *

I think that's a compliment... ;)

-l

Posted on 2004-03-23 23:33:51 (last edited on 2004-03-23 23:34:55)

Troupe

Hell yes, these threads are t3h shit. I have pages of notes on all these topics, I just haven't had time to post them. But when I get some time during school I'll write some big replies. Way to go!

Posted on 2004-03-24 03:21:52

andy

A combination of the two tends to work nicely as well: every character has a role they are 'born' into, but has some flexibility as to how they develop within that role.

This offers the storyteller a chance to make the characters' personal identities show through to the statistical (combat, etc) end of the game while still giving the player choices.

Posted on 2004-03-24 06:17:05

locke

Troupe: WOOOT! Bring it, brother! I'll keep posting topics, but you better contribute when you can!

tSB: No doubt. My personal opinion is that a combination of the two is best, but something I have been working on to remove the pre-determined notions of a class system, is to remove the word "class" and replace it with "role". It goes deeper than that, of course. Dump the classic classes, and focus on what attracts people to the classes to begin with: the differences in gameplay style. Some people like to play melee. Some people like to cast spells. Others like to skulk in the shadows. And there's more. There's long-distance damage dealers. There's healers, teleporters, engineers, thinkers, and artists. Let the player choose his/her desired role(s) (especially in a party system), and let the gameplay be dictated by the roll. How's that different from a class system? It removes the conventions and focuses on the gameplay differences.

Just a thought.

Posted on 2004-03-24 13:38:38

Troupe

I LIKE FINAL FANTASY 5!!!!

Just thought I'd throw that in there, thats a good system.

Posted on 2004-03-24 14:17:59

Falthorn

OMG I LIKE GRAND THEFT AUTO!!one

Posted on 2004-03-24 20:52:27

Troupe

OMFG FALTH!!!! LMAO U LAIK GTA D00D TAT GAME WUZ LAIK TOTAL SUX0R4G3 LMFAO I CNT BELIEV U LAIK TAT GAME D00D LMFAO U R SO GHEY!!!!111oneohenee

Posted on 2004-03-24 21:25:12

evilbob

The greatest compromise and most intuitive solution I've seen implemented is Knights of the Old Republic.

You pick a class, but your progression is entirely skill based. When you level up, you may "auto-level," which upgrades your skills appropriate to your class, or you may instead select your own skills to level. And, even when you go to level a skill, you can hit the "recommended" button, which will autoselect the recommended-to-your-class skills available to you next (it merely highlights them -- you can still pick whateverthefuck you want).

Although in general a VERGE game would do better to avoid all that and just make with the hip monsters first.

Posted on 2004-03-24 22:14:56

KilloZapit

You know what I would like to see actually? Ever played Unlimited SaGa? Well, in that game you assign 9 or so skills to a weird octagon thing. What I was thinking is this: Rater then redefine it after every mission, you could set it only at the start of the game. In fact, if you combine it with the class/specialty questions at the start of Romancing Saga 1 and 3, you could do a kind of neat character generation system.

Here is what I am thinking:

In the beginning you chose your character (or if making one for scratch, the race/gender/appearance of the character).
Then you choose your mother class and father class (like Romancing Saga 1) or just one general class. After that you choose you’re specially (weapon or skill type). After that, depending on the options you have selected you have different skills you can put on a grid or something. Depending on the skills (and your race, ect) your base stats/max stats (the level where you can't advance anymore, like Chrono trigger's **), and growth rates. Whatever skills you set will be the skills your characters can use. (Please keep in mind I am talking of skills in the stat-based sense, not as abilities.) What do you think?

Posted on 2004-03-25 00:42:10

Troupe

Thats a cool idea, but you wouldn't be able to change/grow you character afterwards. I mean, like if you started out really liking magic, and then you decided you just wanted to bash heads, you pretty much be fucked unless you wanted to start over.

Posted on 2004-03-25 14:06:27

KilloZapit

But that’s kind of the whole point. Besides you could always pick up some other characters. Actually maybe it would be best to allow you to leave some panels blank so you can assign them to skills during play or something.

Posted on 2004-03-25 19:22:56

Troupe

Good idea, but you can't just pick up other characters and ignore the main character, because thats the character thats going to develop personality.

Posted on 2004-03-25 23:11:54

KilloZapit

Apparently you haven’t played that many RPGs :P

Posted on 2004-03-26 00:25:02

Mythril

A lot of RPGs should really be called story playing games or something. SPGs!
And the fact that you have to start over to try a new character setup, adds to the replay value. :P

Posted on 2004-03-26 10:52:15

Interference22

Good idea, but you can't just pick up other characters and ignore the main character, because thats the character thats going to develop personality.

No, you can't ignore the main character, but thats not to say you should detract from the rest of the party. Baldur's Gate's characters were very rich in detail: you cared for them as much as you did for your own character, more so perhaps.

I think a balance would need to be maintained whereby each member of the party would get their own time in the spotlight if you want to get characterisation right.

Posted on 2004-03-26 11:40:23

KilloZapit

Plus the "main character" is usually a ween.

Posted on 2004-03-26 21:17:02

Troupe

Like Zidane and Tidus, what a bunch of punk asses... I get what you guys are saying...

Posted on 2004-03-27 03:06:08


Displaying 1-20 of 29 total.
12 next
 
Newest messages

Ben McGraw's lovingly crafted this website from scratch for years.
It's a lot prettier this go around because of Jon Wofford.
Verge-rpg.com is a member of the lunarnet irc network, and would like to take this opportunity to remind you that regardless how babies taste, it is wrong to eat them.