Gameplay philosophy open discussion
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Feyr

What I figure, this being Shadowrun, is that you could jack into the Matrix and, completely without guiding storyline, rob banks or break into stores/buildings/offices and loot and plunder

Ever play the Genesis version of Shadowrun? That's pretty much the way I played it...I never managed to get through the storyline because I was always obsessed with building my cyberdeck up and finding the toughest random missions to beat, or just breaking into the megacorps systems to find files to sell to the local fixer. No new ideas to add, but if you haven't tried the Genesis version then you should. =P

--Feyr

Posted on 2004-10-15 05:19:27

grenideer

Shadowrun is one of my favorite genesis games. Weaker on storyline than the SNES version, but the matrix gameplay was so good. And as a whole, the game system was much more like the pen & paper.

Posted on 2004-10-16 00:18:25

KilloZapit

If you ask me, good RPG gameplay mechanics has a few important features:

1. More stats/skills/abilities/techs/items/ect. then you can shake a stick at, but not too many that it is excessive and a minimum of 'filler' stats/skills/abilities/techs/items/ect.
that serve no function that cannot be found elsewhere.

2. Enough freedom in character development that you can train any given character in many different fields while maintaining both a certain but not excessive amount of exclusivity and minimizing excessive preplanning and complexity.

3. 'Level' dynamic that allows progressive character development without resorting to the 'demi-god phenomena' of rising characters abilities so fast and excessively that every 'level' makes characters exponentially more powerful then before, causing earlier areas to lose all semblance of challenge. The 'demi-god phenomena' I think is a weakness of using the 'level' model. Eliminating levels altogether, while maintaining progressive stat and skill increases by another means does much to lessen the excessive exponential power increases training in RPGs provides. Games that follow this idea are the Quest for Glory series and (to an extent) the SaGa series. Some other advice I can offer on this would be to take note of combat mechanics in semi-RPGs such as River City Ransom, and Castlevaina SotN (much more River City Ransom). While possibly due somewhat to their real-time nature, while enemies grow less threatening over time, enemies do not become simply useless over time as in more traditional RPGs (except the bosses in Castlevaina SotN, but they were useless already).

Posted on 2004-10-19 08:46:11

resident

I think the problem there is that you NEED for areas to become easier. It's what lets you feel like your characters actually ARE improving over time.

Perhaps you shouldn't simply allow the player to gain gain HP at levelling up? This way, even weak enemies could present a challenge, especially in numbers?

Posted on 2004-10-20 05:43:37

KilloZapit

There is a diffrence between areas becoming easier and areas becomeing a joke.

Posted on 2004-10-20 08:11:05

resident

It's a very fine line. By the time you can wipe out an Evil GodTM, then an area filled with adorable fuzzy bunnies really shouldn't be giving you any problems anymore.

I do like the system Neverwinter Nights uses though, whereby you set an encounter and it's toughness relative to your party.

Posted on 2004-10-20 10:33:30 (last edited on 2004-10-20 10:35:26)

Troupe

Neat thread :)

The problem with level system is that it makes no sense in the context of game-world continuity. You start out in a vast kingdom where the monsters are easy, then you go to a quite secluded village where the monsters are more difficult. Then you pop in the next game and the exact reverse occurs! There's no logic behind the strength of the enemies you fight. The bosses' statistics are all arbitrary, determined only by the point at which you fight them. To me it seems pretty ridiculous.

I'm a customization freak myself (ask Rage ;P), and I must say that if a game doesn't have any skill points or any way to customize your party, my reaction drops pretty significantly. It's why I love FF5 and like FF4, and why I can't get enough of MMORPGs. BUT, it really depends on your idea of a roleplaying game. Really, FF4 isn't roleplaying at all. Cecil does whatever he damn well pleases and Rydia is going to learn Ice2 at level 9. To be honest I don't find this kind of game very appealing. You've got an engrossing story, but you haven't put anything into it. You're not invested. You're just a spectator watching a story unfold, following a linear plot, at most doing a few sidequests to break the monotony. I'm more of a fan of open-ended, DND-style gameplay. I like to make a fully customizable character from the outset (or customize them more fully in-game like in Planescape Torment) and base my decisions on the personality I've decided for my character (or my own personality if I'm trying to represent myself). The interesting thing is, the only game I've known people to cry in is FF7, which is pretty much the pinnacle of everything I've just discussed. So perhaps true emotional connection comes not from you being immersed in your character, but immersed in the story?

My rant on leveling managed to turn into a rant on story-telling and RPG styles, but I think they are intertwined thoroughly enough that what I talked about has some bearing on this thread. So thanks for listening :)

Posted on 2004-10-20 23:07:43

Kildorf

I've always thought levels are silly, though in the long run I think I'm really of two minds... (and sorry if I sound like I'm repeating myself or someone else; my communication skills have been pretty shabby of late.)

Levels are a fun way for a game to work. You have quantifiable achievements that get farther apart and harder to work for as you go, but all the while you have a little gauge that lets you know how far you've come and how far you have left to go. In addition, each level has a good jump in your abilities; you get better at attacking, more health, tougher, etc. all at once, so each level is that much sweeter. Unfortunately, you miss out on player's choice. If the player wants another warrior, and you don't give him one, then he's out of luck. This can be pretty frustrating if you want to play a game, not read a book.

On the other hand, I've always loved customizability. The idea of being able to pick exactly what improvements come next, and making each character fill the niche that I want them to, it just makes me feel warm and good inside. I also feel that it helps with replayability... it gives you incentive to go back and try developing a character in a different way. Especially if game designers were smart enough to make skill systems that mattered in ways other than combat (opening optional story branches, allowing alternate puzzle solutions, etc.) Unfortunately, this has the drawback of not just more work for the designer, but it also sort of cheapens the characters; if each character can be customized to be exactly the same as the others, how do you build a coherent story around that?

In my opinion, the second approach is way more suited to RPGs, as long as you keep everything under control. I don't understand why we don't have more level-style approaches to action-adventure games, because I think the two suit each other much better.

And with all that said, I'm gonna plug my game now. ;) In Geas, I'm setting up a system where each character gains experience, but there are no discrete levels anywhere. I'll figure out growth formulae for each character, such that you get small incremental boosts to stats and health as you accrue experience. As for skills, I've developed a skill tree system where you buy skills with your accumulated experience, and if you feel like making Kiel, the healer, become an ass-kicking sword-fighter, then you can sink all her experience into combat skills. To combat the FFX problem where all the characters become interchangeable, though, I'm also tossing in two 'aptitudes' or whatever per character: a special skill that isn't buyable, and often affects how skills are used. Kiel, for instance, has 'Skilled Healer', which means that healing skills just work better for her.

I like to think that I've found a pretty good balance between having customizable characters, but still giving them roles around which to build the overall story. Oh, and I also intend to throw in bits of what I mentioned above... developing the characters differently will provide different paths and whatnot.

Anyway, sorry for that aside and little bit of self-promotion... hopefully something I've said added something or sparked someone's imagination somehow.

Posted on 2004-10-20 23:51:35

KilloZapit

Quote:Originally posted by resident

It's a very fine line. By the time you can wipe out an Evil GodTM, then an area filled with adorable fuzzy bunnies really shouldn't be giving you any problems anymore.


That's just the kind of nonsense I want to avoid. I am saying to cut it out with the idea of having extremely weak cannon folder enemies and extremely strong uber god-like enemies. It's just not realistic or sensible. At best, a maxed out character should be 2 to 10 times stronger then a starting character, not millions and millions of times stronger. Character development should focus on abilities, not stats. It makes no sense to have an character gain demi-god power within at most one or two days. Only the Quest for Glory series or maybe SaGa Frontier, offers a good rate of growth, and even that goes faster then my liking.

I also agree wholeheartedly with everything Troupe and Kildorf said.

Posted on 2004-10-21 00:52:30

Troupe

Unfortunately, this has the drawback of not just more work for the designer, but it also sort of cheapens the characters; if each character can be customized to be exactly the same as the others, how do you build a coherent story around that?

FF7 anyone?

(Note that I am not an FF7 fan, I thought this was the problem with FF7.)

Posted on 2004-10-24 04:06:41

Bitmonkey

Wow, tons of great ideas and discussion flying around here.

I love the idea of that system that Kildorf has described for Geas. I hope the ballance on that works out.

Reading an article over at Gamasutra, one more facet of game balance comes to mind: the dreaded Prefered Strategy.

You know, where there is one little trick that works better than anything else, so to get the most out of your characters you end up just doing the same thing over and over and over again? I mean, it's one thing to find a nice weapon or cool spell or whatever, but it's another to make one action trump everything else so you just sit there pushing the same button for hours. I'm trying to think of a game in which that happens that I've played...

Well, yeah. Lets all be good little designers and not give players Knights of the Round Table summons at the begining of the game, k? ;P

Posted on 2004-10-24 05:41:00

resident

I though - yup - Baldurs Gate had an interesting mechanic - allowing you to 'adopt' NPC's in the world into your party, but also allowing you to fill it with genetic clones if you wanted.

The world NPC's naturally all had their own backstories and associated quests which could only be accomplished if that NPC was in your group.

Posted on 2004-10-24 11:48:06 (last edited on 2004-10-24 11:49:48)

zaril

Remember, you can even find uses for Trimods with skills, say chance of success increasing along an x˛ curve as you gain more skill! YOU WILL USE TRIMODS!

Enough said, here's a new screenshot, I'm just proud that my scrollbar works.

Scrollbar Madness in Vergeł Theme

Posted on 2004-10-24 14:42:49


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