Ok. Clearly this is a big issue.

Here's my take on your comments:

Saying that VC is what makes VERGE VERGE seems a little silly to me. I always envisioned VERGE as a means to create console-style RPGs. V2 expanded that by removing much of the hard-coded functionality, and placing it into VC2. VC and VC2 were pretty different. VC2 become far more complicated for a lot of users, and that's why (as far as I know) no one has made a full game with it. Heck, the developers couldn't even make a solid demo with it. It was very time consuming. But what do you get for all that? Flexability. Why is VC2 better? Because it let you do things you couldn't do before... control things you couldn't control before. Make games that weren't RPGs, or make RPGs that were much more detailed and original.

That, to me, was big step in the right direction. It had a large learning curve, but with that came flexability. You can't pay enough for flexability when it comes to game development.

Now everything is all about Windows. Migrating everything to windows required (almost) a complete re-write of the engine. It's a new engine. It has to be, because the way Windows does graphics functions, memory management, time-slicing, etc... is different from the way it was done in DOS. (yes... this is obvious). So the engine, and it's support utilities, and it's functions need to go through another migration to support the Windows environment.

This means we are at the third revision - and more if you count all of the splinter releases.

These are re-writes. Almost completely. As I remember it, VC2 was written almost completely from scratch, and then again to be ported to Windows. The functions may have the same names, and the syntax might be the same, but behind the covers, it's a different story.

So now we are looking at making other modifications. Stabilizing the code under Windows, and we are evaluating pulling out VC and replacing it with a Python.

Would vecna be offended? I doubt it. I think he would be excited at the prospect of adding functionality that is already built-in to Python, such as networking. vecna always struck me as a realist, with a side order of dreamer. He put VERGE together (with help from several people - Hahn being a cornerstone) to make Phantasy Star style games. He wrote a nifty scripting language to allow developers to build functionality. Would he say VC is what makes VERGE VERGE? I dunno. We'll have to wait for his answer. But frankly, it's not the syntax, the functions, or whatever... if it's anything, it's the fact that it had a scripting language. That's the thing that made VERGE attractive to me. It had a scripting language - period. It could have been BASIC, Pascal, whatever. The syntax wouldn't have mattered. The flexability, extensability, and usability were the key.

I think swapping VC for Python, as long as it can DO everything that VC did, why does it matter? After that it's all about syntax.

Does migrating the scripting language to Python mean that it's not VERGE? No. Why should it? This engine is many years old now. It's time for some evolution. It's time for innovation. I believe Python is one way to bring it up-to-date, add some features, create a little more stability, and flatten the learning curve a little.

Am I nostalgic about VC? Sure. I've spent a LOT of time in my past writing little VC functions to do this or that. I was all into "technical demos"... although I never released any, I had about 10 of these demos complete by the time I left. That amounted to a lot of lines of VC. But was it the syntax that made it interesting? Nah. It was the possibilities.

In my (humble) opinion, if Python can do everything that VC can do, and a lot more, then what's the problem?

And since I didn't go into too much detail about the "It's a whole new engine! It shouldn't be called VERGE anymore!" idea... I think that's a mistake. With change comes fear of losing the past. V1 will always exist, so long as we don't have a bunch of hard disk failures. Like a LOT of hard disk failures. So will V2. But the goal of this new version is the same:

Create an engine and a set of tools by-which people can create console-style RPGs (and other games) easily, and without heavy development experience or time.

This is accomplished by using the same methodology that we used back at the beginning. An engine, maps, a map & tile maker, some .chrs, a few tunes, and a scripting language. The methodology is the same. The guts are different. So what? I think it still follows the vecna's original vision -- one which all of us here are interested in maintaining. To maintain it will require updating the technology. Such is life. V2 was a complete re-write. So is this.

Evolution. Plain and simple.

-b

---

I agree fully. I couldn't have said it better. I bow to thee! *bows* :D

---

zaril@hellven.org - ICQ 7698022

If you want to go on making your game in V2, do so. Just because win2k users can't play it doesn't mean you can't make it!

Sure, v2 could use a *little* help. Some solid docs, a complete library like v1, etc. But you can do what you want in it. I've been scripting a system for about a month now that could probably emulate win2k if I wanted it to. That's in vc2.

BUT-- I'm not necessarily accepting your point. Personally, I think Python's extra functionality will come in handy for making great games. Of course, that's not to say it's necessary. Hell, FFI was a great game with minimal technology. There are people that still prefer it to FF9, and people that will still prefer it to FFX with it's newfangled PS2 wizardry.

But in my opinion, Python will be better, for me, for making a great game.

You're right that game development takes time and effort. Some people don't get that, but I don't think the Python-supporters are those people. People like tSB *know* about time and effort. Hell, he's creating a whole new engine for crying out loud! So don't act like they don't have a clue, cuz they do.

Python doesn't have a purpose like VC does. I mean, VC was created for scripting RPG's. Python was creating for programming whatever you want, just like C++, Pascal, etc. What tSB's doing with Python is giving us the flexibility of low-level programming in combination with a ready-to-use engine. You'd be bitching a lot more if you had to code the entity systems, map handlers, rendering code, and everything else yourself before making your game.

V2 or V3, it doesn't matter. They're as different as Verge and Sphere. And as I've said before, V1 and V2 are as different also. Nobody complained that V2 wasn't Verge. This "name" thing is getting to be a bigger issue than it should.

If V3 was called something else--like PythonRPG, for example--I'll bet you would stop complaining (since that's your point) and continue to use V2. But PythonRPG will still exist as an engine for the rest of us to use. Nothing changes if you change the name. They're still different engines. If it's called V3, you can still keep using V2. Same difference.

Also, I'm getting tired of hearing "but now I have to port my game to this new version!" (That comment comes from a lot of people, BTW--I'm not singling anyone out.) You DON'T. Just because the technology is upgraded doesn't mean you have to embrace it. Nintendo was still releasing SNES games long into the life of PSX, and PSX games will still be appearing long into the life of PS2, Gamecube, and the almighty X-Box. No one's forcing you to convert your code. Just finish your game and quit whining about it!

Verge isn't about playing games, it's about making them. Stop complaining about how no one else is doing anything and do something yourself! As Roto said: actions DO speak louder than words.

Personally, I support Locke, tSB, and Python in general. The evolution of the engine is the next logical step, and it will give us more power than we ever had before.

Thanks, Locke, for having the patience to listen to these idiots :)

That is all.

--Invicticide

---

We don't need better engines, we need better creation tools!

"If you want to go on making your game in V2, do so. Just because win2k users can't play it doesn't mean you can't make it!"

I already am making my game. I don't need you to tell me something I'm already doing. As for the win2k users, I do care. Why should I limit my audience when it was promised that I wouldn't have to?

"Sure, v2 could use a *little* help. Some solid docs, a complete library like v1, etc. But you can do what you want in it."

Sure, solid docs. That would be nice. As for a complete V1 emulation library...ever heard of Sully Pi, EZV2, Clips' V1 Emulation Library, and vecna's v1 compatability library? I did and absolutely nothing was done with them. Shows how little people actually care about others helping them.

"I've been scripting a system for about a month now that could probably emulate win2k if I wanted it to. That's in vc2."

Gee. Win2k? I doubt it. As for any SNES quality RPG, I'm damn sure it can be done in V2C. Just no one's willing to make the effort.

"BUT-- I'm not necessarily accepting your point."

Who said that you have to?

"Personally, I think Python's extra functionality will come in handy for making great games."

If people can use the power, yes. If not, what's the point? It's all useless in my eyes.

"Of course, that's not to say it's necessary. Hell, FFI was a great game with minimal technology. There are people that still prefer it to FF9, and people that will still prefer it to FFX with it's newfangled PS2 wizardry."

....Revelance? You're saying that there's a technological difference between scripting languages?
*insert here long moments of laughter and joy*

"But in my opinion, Python will be better, for me, for making a great game."

That's good for you.

"You're right that game development takes time and effort. Some people don't get that, but I don't think the Python-supporters are those people."

Ahem, you should read locke's arguement a bit slower. You would see that he does indeed hint to that.

"People like tSB *know* about time and effort. Hell, he's creating a whole new engine for crying out loud!"

DUH. HE HAS BEEN MAKING A WHOLE NEW ENGINE! WHY NOT GIVE IT A NEW NAME?

"So don't act like they don't have a clue, cuz they do. "

No. They don't have a clue at all. If they did, they would have given it a new name.

"Python doesn't have a purpose like VC does. I mean, VC was created for scripting RPG's. Python was creating for programming whatever you want, just like C++, Pascal, etc."

Then learn C++, Pascal, etc. Don't mix up a game creation engine with a windows application maker.

"What tSB's doing with Python is giving us the flexibility of low-level programming in combination with a ready-to-use engine."

Well, vecna and his team did it first and made thier own scripting language while at it.

No offense but can tSB say that he made a useable scripting language on his second try? Not really. Although he can say that he did thrashed one up a bit.

"You'd be bitching a lot more if you had to code the entity systems, map handlers, rendering code, and everything else yourself before making your game."

No I wouldn't. I'd learn C. If Verge didn't exist right now, I would be busily coding my game with Allegro instead of having to soapbox to you and many others every thirty minutes.

"V2 or V3, it doesn't matter."

V3? There is no V3, my friend.

"They're as different as Verge and Sphere."

And do we consider Sphere to be Verge? No.

"And as I've said before, V1 and V2 are as different also. Nobody complained that V2 wasn't Verge."

That's because V2 was an improvement on V1's VC. Nothing was really changed and everything that was hardcoded before was simply brought upfront so you could mess with it. If you ever took a gander at V1's source code, there's a lot of stuff to V2 easily you could port with little sweat and modification. There was also improvements made with VC. No variable limits, strings, and you could make your own functions. Then there are the other improvements, more layers, bigger CHRs, yadda yadda.

"This "name" thing is getting to be a bigger issue than it should."

That's because it is a bigger issue.

"If V3 was called something else--like PythonRPG, for example--I'll bet you would stop complaining (since that's your point) and continue to use V2."

Yes. And I'd probably try PythonRPG at some point in the future.

"But PythonRPG will still exist as an engine for the rest of us to use."

Of course.

"Nothing changes if you change the name. They're still different engines."

Yes, there would be a PythonRPG community elsewhere and yes, they are DIFFERENT engines.

"If it's called V3, you can still keep using V2. Same difference."

That had no relevance to the previous statement.

"Also, I'm getting tired of hearing "but now I have to port my game to this new version!""

Because we shouldn't have to. We were promised this prerogative a long time ago. When there was to be a windows version of Verge 2 released, to port it (to this new version) we wouldn't have to break our code totally. If you were paying attention two years ago, you would have know. Instead you were porbably cursing the dev team for having such a "hard-to-use" game creation engine. Blame yourself for why there isn't an offical WinVerge2.

"Verge isn't about playing games, it's about making them. Stop complaining about how no one else is doing anything and do something yourself! As Roto said: actions DO speak louder than words."

I've done something. About six, eight, ten, fourteen game/tech demos with lots of subtle but well done code. You want me to release them? That'd be nice, but I doubt it would do you any good.

By the way. I am Roto and from what I've seen, you too have been spouting out words. So don't say I'm a hypocrit when you're a big fat one.

"You DON'T. Just because the technology is upgraded doesn't mean you have to embrace it. Nintendo was still releasing SNES games long into the life of PSX, and PSX games will still be appearing long into the life of PS2, Gamecube, and the almighty X-Box."

Again, no relevance to your prior statement. Please don't be poetic unless you can keep it consistent.

"No one's forcing you to convert your code. Just finish your game and quit whining about it!"

Obviously no one is forcing me. And why would I be whining about my game? I'm not complaining about it. The engine's almost finished. I don't have any complaints. Do I sound like I'm complaining about my game? No. Not really.

"Personally, I support Locke, tSB, and Python in general. The evolution of the engine is the next logical step, and it will give us more power than we ever had before."

It's good to support people and thier efforts. tSB made an effort and did a nice job. He deserves applause.

As for locke, he'd returned and has done nothing more than offer to lead/dictate and set up another repo. *raises an questioning eyebrow* And you're already supporting him, you say? Hmmm...interesting.

As for Python, code in pure Python, then send in your code and ask for commentary. When you do that, then you can say you supported Python.

"Thanks, Locke, for having the patience to listen to these idiots :)"

And how dare you have the nerve of calling me an idiot.

"That is all."

And it isn't much.

---

"I don't think it's silly. It makes the program more unique for having it's own programming language."

Yep. You got it. But what difference does it make what the syntax of that language is? I mean, it could be BASIC, C++, Java... whatever. As long as it has functions to manipulate the engine, who cares what it's written in?

The idea of using Python, however, is to make it easier. To allow support for things like Networking. To enhance stability. blah blah... you know the drill.

"VC2? Complicated? Are you serious? The only people who actually had problems were those who jumped in and thought they knew everything. I worked slowly and it paid off. And there have been full games. As for the developers, I admit they were quite lazy (except Aen, he gave proof that he worked *displays the code that could've been used in Sully2 and sighs*)."

I am serious. Making a game in VERGE got way more complicated with V2. Period. It was partly VC2's "fault", but also, the engine became more difficult to build on because of the flexability.

..and the increased complexity resulted in a much sharper learning curve, and longer development time. Ironically, by adding all of those nifty features and making it a much more robust engine, the original developers eliminated it's best feature: ease-of-use. V2 was out of the reach of many of V1's original usership. In my opinion, this is what caused the major lull in development - one that continues to today.

My goal, with the help of some good people here, would be to put it back into the reach of the people who are interested in making a game, and not force them to - as you put it - work slowly. While I admire your persistance, I think the majority of people want to be able to download it and start building immediatly. And why shouldn't that be the case? That's the whole point behind doing this. Give people the tools to build what they want, without requiring them to have a CompSci degree, and a lot of patience.

You don't need patience to design a good game. You need vision and creativity. VERGE is the tool by which the "average being" can create a game they can call their own. And your definition of a "good game" may not (and probably isn't) everyone else's definition of a "good game".

"Time consuming? Yeah, but every game takes time to produce. You can't even expect to make a half-decent demo in RM2K without spending a couple of hours testing it out and working out all of the quirks."

Time consuming. Yes. I don't think it's wrong to think that a user will be willing to spend a couple of hours on a project... at least initially... but if those first few hours are full of failure, they are going to walk away. Like I said above, people want to
build something. They want to come in, slap down some tiles, and make something happen.

We seem to have gotten off the track here a little.

Here's the irony: I _don't_ think swapping Python for VC is going to reduce the development time considerably. I mean, both are languages. But if you are going to force the user into learning a new language, why not have them learn a highly supported, full-featured language like Python? Especially if it allows us to add features like networking and database connectivity.

"Not everything is Windows. Hell, I could care less about Windows. I'm quite satisifed looking at a DOS prompt and playing abandonware. At least, I know DOS doesn't crash as often as Microsoft junky OS.

(And don't recommend me win2k...unless you're willing to hand me a copy...for free)."

Uhh... sorry to say, but DOS has been dead for a long time. Argue it as much as you like, Windows 2000 is simply a better operating system. No question. Just because you don't want to migrate to Windows doesn't mean everyone else hasn't already done so. Abandonware is called that for a reason, btw.

Also, I believe now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing, because didn't you write this:

"Still, if possible, I'd like a more stable VC Verge
for windows in the future. K?"

K... but doesn't that kinda go against your "DOS till the end!" attitude?

"What third revision? When was this announced? Now I can get to code in Vergebasic. Gee, l33t! Seriously, this is no third revision. Get off that kick."

Uhh... what kick? It's real simple: V1 was DOS. V2 was a rewrite in DOS. What I'm talking about doing is making a new build, probably based mostly on tSB's code, which is a complete re-write to make it take advantage of Windows. That's three revisions, right?

"Mind doing me a favor and keeping VC? Me and a whole lot of others have done work with it and should be rewarded by not forcibly having to port it to another language just so the win2k obssessed can play."

That is my plan. If it's technically feasible, that would be my choice. I'm not sure how that'll be done, but I'm planning on digging in and coming up with a way to do that. I won't tell you that it'll happen for sure. And I won't tell you that if it does, that it will be built-in to the engine... but I would like to do that.

Remember: V2 and V1 are not compatible. It's not like this hasn't happened before. But let me look at it, and we'll see if it's possible.

(my quote)"Would vecna be offended? I doubt it."

"Of course not. Mostly because now he doesn't care. He did his job about two, three years ago and watched as everyone (except a few notable indivudals) went and did absolutely nothing with his work. He was probably offended back then, but he's over it."

I actually said this because someone else brought this up. It wasn't directed at you. Much as it would seem, you aren't the only one speaking out about this.

I can't speak for vecna. I'm trying to get in touch with him, but I haven't heard from him yet. /shrug That's his thing. And that's fine. I'd actually be interested in his opinion.

"Probably so but when did you need networking to play a Phantasy Star clone? When cheating? :P"

I'm sure this was meant in jest... but the idea is: options are good. Maybe you can't think of a reason to have networking now, but I can think of a bunch of ways to implement networking in a phantasy star clone.

And how does cheating play into it? Make a server, store the character data and logic on the server. Use the VERGE engine as a client.

Make a chat system based on this.

Create a game with a Diablo/battle-net style setup.

Connect it to a MUD server, and use it as a graphical MUD client.

...there's tons of things you could do.

Again, options are power. Think outside... ;)

(my quote)"But frankly, it's not the syntax, the functions, or whatever... if it's anything, it's the fact that it had a scripting language. That's the thing that made VERGE attractive to me. It had a scripting language - period. It could have been BASIC, Pascal, whatever. The syntax wouldn't have mattered. The flexability, extensability, and usability were the key."

"Yeah, so? VC already has this..."

Yep. Neat how that works out, eh?

"It's far more than syntax. Because Python and VC are two seperate entities with two seperate purposes. One is a scripting language, with the professionial look of a real programming language, used to tie together different programs. The other is a scripting language devoted to making games (to be more specific: role-playing games). My qualm is you're basically asking me to use something that on the border of being an actual programming language. If that's the case, why not recommend that I learn how to use a real one? I mean, C's not that hard. It just takes time...."

That's not the point at all. Actually, what I'm saying is, the Python version has all of the features that VC has. It just ALSO happens to have all this other stuff that would allow you to do all sorts of neat things. I'm not asking you to learn a new language so that you can write a web server. I'm telling you that you can use what you know, with a slightly different syntax, achieve the same results, and add a whole bunch of stuff that you couldn't get with VC. Not to mention, "learning" Python is FAR easier than learning C. It's a very different beast. Have you even looked at it yet?

(my quote)"Does migrating the scripting language to Python mean that it's not VERGE? No. Why should it? This engine is many years old now. It's time for some evolution. It's time for innovation."

"But what's the need? There isn't any. Verge isn't being endangered by some ominous force or natural disaster. It has the adaptability of a human being. If it can make FF3, it can make Super Mario...wait, it did."

I guess this relates to your "I'll stick with DOS!" attitude. That's fine, if you are happy with what it can do.

However, my goal is not to make an engine for you. It's to make an engine for the masses. Sure, we probably won't have 1,000 downloads... but maybe. If it's based on Python, which has a usership of hundreds of thousands of people, then we have a much greater potential user base. Yes? Doesn't that sound interesting to you? Attracting all sorts of new talent who can walk in, pick it up, and start building immediatly? I think that's pretty cool.

Let me be very clear: I'm not doing this for you and the other three "active" game developers who read this board. I'm trying to take your experience and knowledge, incorporate it into a new build, and then come up with features and innovation that allows NEW people to come to the table. What would you choose: and engine that you and like 2 other people are interested in, or an engine that potentially thousands could be interested in?

I'll take the latter.

If you want to play DOS games, stick with DOS. If you want to write for DOS in VC, stick with V1 or V2, and go for it. No one is going to take that away from you. Release your game, and enjoy it.

If I can get VC support into the build I want to make, then great! You'll be happy. But I'm not willing to anchor the progress of this project because you... well... I _still_ don't have a good sense for why you are against this.

It sounds like you are complaining about having to redo your game. That would suck. So don't. Release your game with whatever engine you are working with now. That's fine. There are STILL companies releasing games built on the Quake2 engine (Anachronox).

Then you mentioned having to learn a "real language"... why is that a problem? This seems like a good thing. It enhances your overall experience with programming by helping you learn a well-respected "real-world" language. Neat, eh? And learning this should be cake after learning VC. It's WELL covered in books, magazines, sites, etc.

...the rest I'm still trying to figure out.

(my quote)"I believe Python is one way to bring it up-to-date, add some features, create a little more stability, and flatten the learning curve a little."

"Up-to-date? You could've just ported it to windows (hell, it already has been, but look at it...*screams*)"

Right. It's broken. So we want to make a singe, solid release that isn't broken, runs under windows, and is generally easy to develop for. That'd be what I call "up-to-date".

"Stability? If it's convoluted, feh, live with it. Make your code simplier. Or better yet, make something and show it. The dev team's bound to respond with joy and fix things up. I guess it's too late for that however... "

Uhh... yeah. I think trying to fix the old engine seems like a waste of time, since tSB and several other people have already made a lot of progress rebuilding.

And I don't think VC's problems are all user-generated. I think there are problems with the implementation. /shrug It's broken. That's what I meant by stability.

"Flatten the learning curve? Make some better guides, more tutorials, and point people in thier bloody direction. And avoid those wahoos in #vchelp who respond to questions with sarcasm and mocking. I recommend looking for Hatchet or tSB. They at least know that they are there to help."

Sure. But all of the exists in spades for Python. You want support for Python??? it's there. Heck, there's even O'Reilly books about it. Isn't that better than forcing the developers to answer questions? Shouldn't the developers be developing? Fixing bugs, adding features... etc?

"Basically I'm saying that you should start creating and stop preaching. I've been saying that from the start, but now here I am on the soapbox, trying to defend my opinion. Thanks a lot."

Actually, I think we are both preaching. A lot. And I guess you are right. I should stop wasting time bantering with you, and start working on the project.

Maybe I'll do that.

"It's just so more effective of getting the point across with actions as opposed to words."

Hehe. So true.

When are you going to release your game, btw? I'm interested in seeing what a mind like yours can create when you aren't trying to argue with someone.

...with that in mind, this is the last quote I will reference:

"Yeah, evolution so plain and simple that you're basically trading in your wings for an exact copy. Same condition, same usability, and really nothing more."

Uhm. What we are talking about is totally different. A new, extensible, well supported scripting language, a new engine to take advantage of Windows, greatly enhanced graphics capabilities, and (fer cryin' out loud) a SINGLE release that works.

Is it VERGE? Why not?

...and who are you to say it's not? If everyone else is interested in this, and we have a chance at actually making it something interesting to people outside the current group, then why the hell not do it?

And why should we leave the name behind? The name represents a concept, not a piece of code.

And with that, I leave you to your DOS.

-b

---

I'm gonna address a lot of points here, but I'm not gonna do it by sticking parts of your message in because that gets messy with long messages.

First off, about limiting your audience: well, you sound like a marketer trying to make money off your mass-market RPG. It's Verge. No matter how great it is, 15 people are going to play it. That's life in the freeware GCE community.

If you *really* want to expand your audience, Python can do that. But on to the next point...

Second point: as Locke so succintly stated, Verge is a concept. tSB is building that concept into reality. The engine may have no code in common with V1/V2, but it has every *concept* they had, and more!

Third point: Maybe you *can* build Windows apps in Python, but that's not its purpose in the Verge implementation thereof. With the included libraries, Python is as easy as the VC of V1, yet with the power to do ANYTHING. Those who want to slap together the base of their game in a few hours can, while those of us who want to make extremely professional, complex, and refined games can take advantage of that power. It's OPTIONAL, and that's why it's important.

Fourth point: VC for V1 was a scripting language, and as such, had very little power. It was easy, but it was limited. You couldn't even define your own functions or variables. There was *very* little flexibility. See above.

Fifth point: Slamming tSB for his second shot at revitalizing Verge is irrelevant. That doesn't matter any more. What matters now is v2.7, on which he's doing a fine, professional job.

Sixth point: If you *did* have to code all your own systems from the ground up, you say you'd go ahead and learn C, and build your game with Allegro instead of "soap-boxing" to all of us. So quit soap-boxing and do it. C/Allegro has more flexibility and power even than Python. Why not prove to us why you're so much smarter?

Seventh point: You mention how we shouldn't have to port our games to new versions in order to keep compatibility. Well, that was the dev team's dream, but not Microsoft's. It's not vecna's fault that win2k isn't as compatible as we'd like. But can you really expect to port the engine to a new version all the time? Whether it's Verge game to Verge or Verge to Windows, the same problem remains. What, should we make Microsoft quit updating Windows and giving us new and powerful features just for the sake of maintaining 100% compatibility?

Eighth point: Okay, I've gotta put this quote in, even though I hate to go back on my word :) But you won't understand what I'm saying otherwise:

- Invicticide:
- "As Roto said: actions DO speak louder than words."
- Roto:
- "By the way. I am Roto..."

I actually laughed when I saw this. I put your name in there in case anyone *else* was reading my post. Sorry about that :) I did have the presence of mind to know I was replying to YOU.

Ninth point: Locke offers to lead, NOT to dictate. And who wouldn't like a new Repo? V-rpg is as dead as I've ever seen it, from the lack of updates and file content. TVS is gone. All we have is a disorganized FTP spot at tvs.mastercain.com and a few random files scattered across various Verge sites. What's wrong with Locke's offerings? Yes, I do support him, because he makes sense.

Tenth point: I support the implementation of Python into Verge, not the use of raw Python for the creation of RPG's. But Python has a large and healthy community, a community with talents that, added to our own here at Verge, could produce some astounding results. That is, if you're open-minded enough to accept them.

FINAL POINT: I dare have the nerve to call you an idiot because this is America and I have the right to speak my opinion. And in my opinion, and idiot is anyone who is so closed-minded as to completely reject positive change over something so trivial as a NAME.

That is all. And IMHO, it's plenty.

--Invicticide

P.S. I still think it's up to tSB and tSB alone to name the engine, since he IS the one making it. And if he wants to call it Verge, that's fine by me.

---

We don't need better engines, we need better creation tools!

(GOD, THIS WAS LONG ONE, was that your ploy? Good job, but I'm too stubborn. It could have only worked on someone else with less of an attention span.)

"Yep. You got it. But what difference does it make what the syntax of that language is? I mean, it could be BASIC, C++, Java... whatever. As long as it has functions to manipulate the engine, who cares what it's written in?"

Verge was meant to be coded in VC. If the dev team wanted to use something else, they would have done so from the start or at least noted in the future of a possible change.

"The idea of using Python, however, is to make it easier. To allow support for things like Networking. To enhance stability. blah blah... you know the drill."

Yeah yeah, go on.

"I am serious. Making a game in VERGE got way more complicated with V2. Period. It was partly VC2's "fault", but also, the engine became more difficult to build on because of the flexability."

Well, that's from your own point of view. If it is complicated for you, then you should really consider brushing up on your design skills or avoiding Python, which has a lot more flexibility.

"..and the increased complexity resulted in a much sharper learning curve, and longer development time.
Ironically, by adding all of those nifty features and making it a much more robust engine, the original developers eliminated it's best feature: ease-of-use."

And you think Python is any easier? Maybe a little bit, but that's because professionals are working on this. We are not talking six teenager amateur programmers, we're talking individuals that, more likely than not, paid to do this.

"V2 was out of the reach of many of V1's original
usership. In my opinion, this is what caused the major lull in development - one that continues to today."

That's because the V1's original usership took to it as a revision of V1 not knowing that it was stated in the docs that things were being loosened. As for the major lull in development, blame yourselves and not V2.

"My goal, with the help of some good people here, would be to put it back into the reach of the people who are interested in making a game, and not force them to - as you put it - work slowly."

I'm not forcing them to. I'm just giving a piece of good advice. If they rush, they'll stumble, and make thier game less than it could have been. I'm not saying to religiously polish it to a sleeming white.
I'm saying make sure the black spots aren't obvious.

"While I admire your persistance,"

Thank you, it's much appreciated.

"I think the majority of people want to be able to download it and start building immediatly."

Then I recommend downloading RPGMaker 2000. Not even V1 met RPGMaker in that capability. You still had to think.

"And why shouldn't that be the case? That's the whole point behind doing this. Give people the tools to build what they want, without requiring them to have a CompSci degree, and a lot of patience."

If you think you need a Computer Science degree to ue V2C, you're seriously underestimating yourself. Don't do that. As for patience, well, you're still going to need it.

"You don't need patience to design a good game. You need vision and creativity. VERGE is the tool by which the "average being" can create a game they can call their own. And your definition of a "good game" may not (and probably isn't) everyone else's definition of a "good game"."

Yes, you need patience as much as you need vision and creativity. As for the average being, they too can use Verge2. I'm an averge joe. You don't see average ol' me whining.

And when I start talking about a good game?

"Time consuming. Yes. I don't think it's wrong to think that a user will be willing to spend a couple of hours on a project... at least initially... but if those first few hours are full of failure, they are going to walk away."

Well, then too bad. No one ever said making games is easy. Vecna warned everyone of that. Game creation is a hard and painstakingly different task. If you don't have what it takes. I'm sorry. Tough.

"Like I said above, people want to build something. They want to come in, slap down some tiles, and make something happen. "

Again, RPGMaker2000 is there.

"We seem to have gotten off the track here a little."

You haven't, don't worry, you've been consistent.

"Here's the irony: I _don't_ think swapping Python for VC is going to reduce the development time considerably."

Aye, Captain. I was way ahead of you.

"I mean, both are languages. But if you are going to force the user into learning a new language, why not have them learn a highly supported, full-featured language like Python? Especially if it allows us to add features like networking and database connectivity.""

I'm not saying you shouldn't. I just saying to use another name.

"Uhh... sorry to say, but DOS has been dead for a long time. Argue it as much as you like, Windows 2000 is simply a better operating system. No question. Just because you don't want to migrate to Windows doesn't mean everyone else hasn't already done so. Abandonware is called that for a reason, btw."

Again, you are wrong. If DOS is dead, why are people still using Allegro and building DOS programs? Why are there easily accesible abandonware sites? Windows 2000 might be more stable, but that's because like Windows 3.1 and Worksgroup before it, it only dealt with Windows specific programs.

And abandonware is software not supported because it doesn't rake in money. Sam N' Max rakes in money and thus you can find it in any LucasArts game compilation.

"Also, I believe now you are just arguing for the sake of arguing, because didn't you write this:"

Well go on.

"K... but doesn't that kinda go against your "DOS till the end!" attitude?"

No, it doesn't. Did I sound kamikaze? No. You're inferring.

"Uhh... what kick? It's real simple: V1 was DOS. V2 was a rewrite in DOS. What I'm talking about doing is making a new build, probably based mostly on tSB's code, which is a complete re-write to make it take advantage of Windows. That's three revisions, right?"

No, because tSB's rewrite isn't a revision of V2 at all. :P


"That is my plan. If it's technically feasible, that would be my choice. I'm not sure how that'll be done, but I'm planning on digging in and coming up with a way to do that. I won't tell you that it'll happen for sure. And I won't tell you that if it does, that it will be built-in to the engine... but I would like to do that."

Thank you, I await further word.

"Remember: V2 and V1 are not compatible. It's not like this hasn't happened before. But let me look at it, and we'll see if it's possible."

Sure, man, sure. *looks at his V1 emulation library and snickers*

"I actually said this because someone else brought this up. It wasn't directed at you. Much as it would seem, you aren't the only one speaking out about this."

Yes, I'm not, but pretty much I brought up vecna in this whole mess because I wanted to know what he thought. I mean, he created Verge, he makes the decision.

"I can't speak for vecna. I'm trying to get in touch with him, but I haven't heard from him yet. /shrug That's his thing. And that's fine. I'd actually be interested in his opinion."

Me too, brotha. Me too.

"I'm sure this was meant in jest... but the idea is: options are good. Maybe you can't think of a reason to have networking now, but I can think of a bunch of ways to implement networking in a phantasy star clone."

I agree. But honestly, I do not see the potential of networking in my game. Unless I want people killing each other with exclusive weapons that they shouldn't have.

Then it would be a riot.

"And how does cheating play into it? Make a server, store the character data and logic on the server. Use the VERGE engine as a client.

Make a chat system based on this.

Create a game with a Diablo/battle-net style setup.

Connect it to a MUD server, and use it as a graphical MUD client."

That's one method but still not everyone is saintly.

"Again, options are power. Think outside... ;)"

Power is also evil especially if it is wasted or abused.

"Yep. Neat how that works out, eh?"

No. I mean, there's nothing in it for me. I'm not using networking.

"That's not the point at all. Actually, what I'm saying is, the Python version has all of the features that VC has. It just ALSO happens to have all this other stuff that would allow you to do all sorts of neat things."

Damn it, you're giving people another reason to throw out tech demos and then you're saying I'm being destructive. Give me a break.

"I'm not asking you to learn a new language so that you can write a web server. I'm telling you that you can use what you know, with a slightly different syntax, achieve the same results, and add a whole bunch of stuff that you couldn't get with VC."

*smirks* Yeah, an "whole" bunch.

"Not to mention, "learning" Python is FAR easier than learning C. It's a very different beast. Have you even looked at it yet?"

I have looked and worked with it. It is easier than C, I admit, but that doesn't mean I want to continue using it. There are other qualms that I have and besides I'm here working so nicely with VC, why bother?

"I guess this relates to your "I'll stick with DOS!" attitude. That's fine, if you are happy with what it can do."

You are inferring again..

"However, my goal is not to make an engine for you."

That was obvious from the start, way from the start.

"It's to make an engine for the masses. Sure, we probably won't have 1,000 downloads... but maybe. If it's based on Python, which has a usership of hundreds of thousands of people, then we have a much greater potential user base. Yes? Doesn't that sound interesting to you? Attracting all sorts of new talent who can walk in, pick it up, and start building immediatly? I think that's pretty cool."

I'm not interested in dealing with such people. Actually, I don't think such people would be interesting in dealing with you, but...*shrugs*

If you see the potential, there's the possibility.

Let me be very clear: I'm not doing this for you and the other three "active" game developers who read this board. I'm trying to take your experience and knowledge, incorporate it into a new build, and then come up with features and innovation that allows NEW people to come to the table. What would you choose: and engine that you and like 2 other people are interested in, or an engine that potentially thousands could be interested in?

"Let me be very clear: I'm not doing this for you and the other three "active" game developers who read this board. I'm trying to take your experience and knowledge, incorporate it into a new build, and then come up with features and innovation that allows NEW people to come to the table. What would you choose: and engine that you and like 2 other people are interested in, or an engine that potentially thousands could be interested in? "

Thousands? Are you serious? You're really stretching the "potentially", man.

"I'll take the latter."

Good for you. *shrugs*

"If you want to play DOS games, stick with DOS. If you want to write for DOS in VC, stick with V1 or V2, and go for it. No one is going to take that away from you. Release your game, and enjoy it."

...I won't repeat myself, but yeah, I'll enjoy myself a whole lot.

"If I can get VC support into the build I want to make, then great! You'll be happy. But I'm not willing to anchor the progress of this project because you... well... I _still_ don't have a good sense for why you are against this."

That would be great and I would be happy.

BECAUSE IT'S CALLED VERGE WHEN IT ISN'T. CONFOUND IT ALL! SPHERE IS VERGE! RPGMAKER2000 IS VERGE! *SCREAMS*

"It sounds like you are complaining about having to redo your game. That would suck. So don't. Release your game with whatever engine you are working with now. That's fine. There are STILL companies releasing games built on the Quake2 engine (Anachronox)."

I'm not complaining in that regard. Heh, it would be so damn easy. Just copy and paste, move some things around, fix some things, get rid of tSB's code. Voila!

"Then you mentioned having to learn a "real language"... why is that a problem? This seems like a good thing. It enhances your overall experience with programming by helping you learn a well-respected "real-world" language."

Ahhh, dude, Python's a scripting language. It's a mockery of a programming language (a good one but...ya know). It's just wiser to recommend ASM than Python anyday.

"Neat, eh? And learning this should be cake after learning VC. It's WELL covered in books, magazines, sites, etc."

So well covered that all you really need is a single html document. I've seen. Man, I have seen. People, I am not against Python. I am against tSB's engine being called Verge. Wasn't I clear enough?

"Right. It's broken. So we want to make a singe, solid release that isn't broken, runs under windows, and is generally easy to develop for. That'd be what I call "up-to-date"."

That's tSB's fault. Do not look at the dev team. Do not look at the dev team.

"Uhh... yeah. I think trying to fix the old engine seems like a waste of time, since tSB and several other people have already made a lot of progress rebuilding."

Really, I don't think it's a time...well, not until a single full RPG has been released. As for the comment about tSB rebuilding....Dude, he's not rebuilding anything! That's his baby!

"And I don't think VC's problems are all user-generated. I think there are problems with the implementation. /shrug It's broken. That's what I meant by stability."

Tough. I've dealt with it and it'd have been fixed two years ago if people worked thier asses off and produce despite that.

"Sure. But all of the exists in spades for Python. You want support for Python??? it's there. Heck, there's even O'Reilly books about it. Isn't that better than forcing the developers to answer questions? Shouldn't the developers be developing? Fixing bugs, adding features... etc?"

The developers of Python answered questions. It's only neccessary that the developers of VC2. They did, but they didn't do a good job. And they're also not developing. vec, where's Blackstar?

But that's not the point. Really.

"Actually, I think we are both preaching. A lot. And I guess you are right. I should stop wasting time bantering with you, and start working on the project."

Yes, you should. You really really should.

As for me, I have already started working. Been working on in-some artwork and learning how to CG. It's been going smoothly except for the time I have to stop and respond to messages posted here.

A side note: If you think I'm being an ass, think of all of my responses are an expression of respect. If I didn't care what you thought, I would have ignored you.

"Hehe. So true."

Indeed.

"When are you going to release your game, btw? I'm interested in seeing what a mind like yours can create when you aren't trying to argue with someone."

In about half a year, maybe more. Definitely, not a full year.

I'm in the starting stages right now. Progress hasn't been slow. it hasn't been fast either. The only thing keeping me from getting it out in three months is that, as a lone marksman, my rate of production is pitifully low compared to a team of twenty. (Then again, FR had about sixteen and they got nothing done...Hmmm). I also want this to be quality. Thanks, Zara. I got high standards to meet. *grumble grumble*

"Uhm. What we are talking about is totally different. A new, extensible, well supported scripting language, a new engine to take advantage of Windows, greatly enhanced graphics capabilities, and (fer cryin' out loud) a SINGLE release that works."

Yeah, A WHOLE NEW GAME CREATION ENGINE. *keels over and dies*

"Is it VERGE? Why not?"

No. Because.. *points to what you just said previously*

"...and who are you to say it's not? If everyone else is interested in this, and we have a chance at actually making it something interesting to people outside the current group, then why the hell not do it?"

I'm not saying I'm the one who finalizes everything. I just saying that it isn't Verge until vecna gives it the okay. Then again, why hasn't tSB emblazon his very own creation?

And don't say it. Please, don't say it.

"And why should we leave the name behind? The name represents a concept, not a piece of code."

The acronym represents Vecna's Extraordinary Roleplaying Game Engine. So indeed it does represent a piece of code. *grins*

"And with that, I leave you to your DOS."

Man..

God..

You love to infer...

*represses his desire to choke choke*

As a silly side note: You remind me of a certain elven rogue that stole my hentai-affilated sword and plunged it into the rampants of a castle. Yeah, this doesn't have much revelance to anything. But please note, his name was Locke too. :P

---

I feel a need to point out a few facts here. Bear with me.

I've seen aen's Sully 2 VC, and it's amazing stuff. aen has a real talent for taking a really uncooperative language and forging nice slick interfaces. But you do realize that he's making up for the language's shortcomings. One particular VC file of his involved using stacks and malloc to create an unlimited number of concurrently existing menus. It's one of the most elegant hacks I've ever been exposed to. But it's still a hack. That same script wouldn't be half as long, complicated, or difficult to understand if it were to be ported to Python. (it'd be better still if it was rewritten)

VC is not "better" because it was made to make games! Aside from the function list, (which you yourself stated was irrelevant) VC is nothing more than a stripped down, interpreted C clone. It is NOT specialized towards making games in any way. Neither is Python.

---

"Ignorance is its own reward" -- Proverb

Yeah, aen's code is pretty pretty fancy, but it'd be mad easier to do in Python.

---

Well, i've been reading these flame-chains for quite some time, and frankly, they seem a bit ridiculous. Although I haven't contributed anything substantial (read: nothing anybody with REAL programming experience would want anyway) to the community, I've been here since the dawn of V1. Let me tell you, V1 to V2 was a huge jump, but it was still verge. What made it verge? Because you could create a game with little programming knowlege. Why not use any other GCE? I don't know. I just liked Verge from the beginning. Verge is the only flexible GCE that i've seen being constantly worked on since its conception. Others i've been afraid of because they kept dying off, or did not have the functionality. Now, I'm not a real good coder, well, if i wasn't so lazy I'd be better, but I have a life too. :^) It seems to me that what you think makes Verge Verge is the VC. Its just a language like any other. What made verge was the community. This is the Verge community, regardless of what language it uses. Verge stands for Vecna's Extraordinary Role-playing Game Engine. Nowhere in that name does it mention any vc or python. None. So it really doesn't matter. We're just continuing on what vecna started. I suppose you make some points about porting, but nobody's forcing you to change. Plus, I haven't seen anything substantial from you either. Maybe if you had released something made in v2 or v1, you would have more credibility, but until i see it, I will assume that you are some adolescent sitting at his computer, whining about nothing inparticular because you don't like it. tSB is doing all he can, i don't see you trying to help in any way. If you had worked on it, then you can have all the vcness that you want, but dont' ruin a good thing for everyone else just because you feel like bitching.

Lean, Mean, and green...
Harveyimp

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