WHY OH WHY OH WHY!??!?!?!?
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LordGalbalan
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Hi, I'm a potential VERGE user and I have determined to inquire: why is VERGE so difficult to use effectively? I am totally mystified as to why the four (or was it five?) VERGE development utilities are not condensed into a single application, but rather distributed seperately and with command line interfaces, no less! If it were that VERGE's development facilities were condensed, then I'd expect the magnitude of the VERGE userbase would soar. So... I just don't get it: [i]why?[/i]
Posted on 2002-01-24 17:15:47
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andy
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Most of the original developers lost interest soon after releasing v2.
"Ignorance is its own reward" -- Proverb
Posted on 2002-01-24 19:13:34
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loretian
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Some people prefer using command line tools like that. While they may be harder to use for the beginner, they also allow for more power (in some ways). Also, GUI tools take much longer to develop. This is a free shop here, not a commercial company.
-loretian
Posted on 2002-01-24 21:25:02
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ltcmdstarbuck
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That verge has only recently crossed over to a windows base. All the windows ports are based on an older dos engine.
Any way my suggestion is that you read the verge tutorial series. I think you can get it over at Vergesource.com. That's how I got aquainted with verge.
Posted on 2002-01-25 12:57:47
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rpgking
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I'd rather use command line interfaces than GUI's. Command lines are simple and fast if you know a little about DOS.
Out of clutter, find simplicity.
-Einstein
Posted on 2002-01-25 20:38:58
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Zaratustra
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I CAN'T TYPE MAPED GUESS I'LL STICK TO HAMSTER REPUBLIC I HEARD THEY'RE IMPLEMENTING POISON IN THE BATTLE SYSTEM ANY DAY NOW
I like tits.
Posted on 2002-01-26 00:02:23
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andy
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One can sprite more efficiently with ACE, than with a generic paint program and CHRMAK. ;)
The strength in commandline utilities usually lies in piping, (directing the output of one utility to another) which doesn't make a whole lot of sense in this context, as most of VERGE's dev tools are simple graphics converters.
"Ignorance is its own reward" -- Proverb
Posted on 2002-01-26 08:17:15
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Omni
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LINUX FOREVER! Little programs are good. Easy to update. Easy to chain together. Better to call two or three simple commands then have some stupid deity-forsaken IDE that hogs RAM and just reinvents everything THAT WE'VE ALREADY DONE. Of course, again, small IDE with calls to little programs are also good.
Posted on 2002-01-26 08:27:48
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invicticide
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I've bitched and moaned about this very topic on and off for the ~3 years I've been with this community (note to potential critics: no, I *haven't* released anything--I've been too busy bitching and moaning =)
Actually, unless you're using WinXP, the DOS tools aren't too hard to pick up, and it makes you feel smart when you master them :)
I still agree that an IDE would by *the* way to go, and that the engine as it exists is pretty damn good anyway, so why not?
But anywho, no one cares and I'm a lazy bastard, so I'll go away.
That is all.
--invicticide
Blargh.
Posted on 2002-01-27 00:29:32
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FR_Patriot
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Why can't the dev tools ask for input when you activate the program? The main annoyance for me is that I can't double click the utility with Windows.
I was thinking something like when you open say CHRMAK, it would ask for the location of a mak file.
I say that the MAK system saves me time but the command line ops waste my time. (same with random web surfing but thats another story)
It is faster and easier to damage something than it is to create or repair it. Isn't it?
Posted on 2002-01-27 20:51:01
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FR_Patriot
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Never tried drag and drop... I was sure it made an error, guess it was the program I used. Hehe.
It is faster and easier to damage something than it is to create or repair it. Isn't it?
Posted on 2002-01-27 21:32:24
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LordGalbalan
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Calmer?
I just find it aggrivating to have to copy all of these utilities from one directory to another whenever I want to make something. Unless I want to remember and type the gigantic directory paths I'm accustomed to using. And why do I have to type a seperate command just to build something as simple as a transluency table?
As for knowing DOS, I probably know MS-Disk Operating System v7 just as well as anyone posting on this board.
I've read (and thoroughly absorbed) a 500+ page book on the command line and Batch file programming. I even managed to write a very simple interpreter in the latter.
But, if it is that this environment is insufficient to my development needs then I'll just continue forward with my own technology, without the VERGE distraction. Would've been fun to play with, maybe make a sample game or two if it had some sorta menu for utility selection and less overhead; but that's probably why no games of real import nor professionalism have been made for it as yet. Probably why the VERGE community is so tiny...
DARN IT!!! I know: I'll make a simple little menu system to work around the consuming command line jargon and location madness. It'll take like, one day-- maybe two--
to write in QB. And it'll work fine!
It'll look just like this:
Please Choose a Utility
_______________________
1) XXXX
2) XXXX
3) XXXX
...Etc.
For that matter... why not do it... in, Batch?
I'm not trying to be offensive to this community nor to its founders, nor to anyone currently associated with the development of VERGE. But come now, is this "I WILL RUN BACK TWO HAMESTER REPBLIC AND USE NEW POISON!@!#@!#" drivel any way to respond to a legitimate complaint that could well allow for bigger, better VERGE games in less time?
Posted on 2002-01-28 12:47:25
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LordGalbalan
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Here's another technique that might help:
1) Open the Properties menu for your target commandline program
2) At the Cmd Line text entry box type one space and a '?' immediately following the path.
From here on, you'll be presented with a prompt box anytime you activate said program.
Posted on 2002-01-28 12:53:25
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LordGalbalan
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@ECHO OFF
:DisplayMenu
Echo
Echo
Echo
Echo Verge Utility Menu, v.BATCH
Echo ___________________________
Echo
Echo Please select a utility
Echo
Echo 1) Character Converter
Echo 2) Character Maker
Echo 3) Font Maker
Echo 4) PACK Compressor
Echo 5) PCX/Font Converter
Echo 6) UNPACK Decompressor
Echo 7) Transluency Table
Echo Generator
Echo 8) Close Menu
Choice /c:12345678
If ErrorLevel 8 GoTo CloseMenu
If ErrorLevel 7 GoTo OpenTRANS
If ErrorLevel 6 GoTo OpenUNPACK
If ErrorLevel 5 GoTo OpenPCXFNT
If ErrorLevel 4 GoTo OpenPACK
If ErrorLevel 3 GoTo OpenFNTMAK
If ErrorLevel 2 GoTo OpenCHRMAK
If ErrorLevel 1 GoTo OpenCHRCONV
:OpenCHRCONV
CHRCONV
GoTo DisplayMenu
:OpenCHRMAK
CHRMAK
GoTo DisplayMenu
:OpenFNTMAK
FNTMAK
GoTo DisplayMenu
:OpenPACK
PACK
GoTo DisplayMenu
:OpenPCXFNT
PCXFNT
GoTo DisplayMenu
:OpenUNPACK
UNPACK
GoTo DisplayMenu
:OpenTRANS
TRANS
GoTo DisplayMenu
:CloseMenu
Yep, it's got that commandline input problem 'cause several of the utilities don't wait for prompts.(?) But BASIC can fix that easily enough with the INPUT command and SHELL.
Posted on 2002-01-28 13:58:06
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rpgking
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You went through all those sentences of bashing the Verge community/engine, and you even said that you'll continue forward with your own technology without Verge. Yet towards the end, you said you'll make a simple QB menu interface to use with VERGE, making it seem like you'll stick with VERGE. Your whole post was just pointless as far as I can see...
Out of clutter, find simplicity.
-Einstein
Posted on 2002-01-28 19:05:43
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rpgking
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What's the point of making a command-line menu interface if it's much easier and faster to just type out a single line like:
maped mymap.map
If you did it your way, you'd have to choose it from a menu, which just complicates things and is more time-consuming.
Out of clutter, find simplicity.
-Einstein
Posted on 2002-01-28 19:08:47
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Omni
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.....
.....
.....so, what are you wanting us to say?
It's kind of stupid to keep arguing. If you don't want to use Verge, don't. It's probably not a good thing for newbies that the development tools are more centralized, even though you can learn them with some work (trying to be neutral). What the bloody heck is Hamster Republic, anyway...Hmm....
Oh, and, if you can program good in QBasic, I've heard you can make a neat little RPG with it. Hmph. It would be great if we could just integrate the utilities instead of calling them separately or making a giant IDE. In my opinion.
Wish I could program that good in QBasic.
Posted on 2002-01-28 21:16:58
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Omni
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Gotta fix the inputs, but...
Why didn't anybody think of that sooner...? Now we just need a good maped.
Posted on 2002-01-28 21:18:49
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invicticide
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Hamster Republic is OHRRPGCE (I think that's the proper acronym; it's really dumb =) BTW, it sucks ass compared to Verge. Lots of limitations :(
That is all.
--invicticide
Blargh.
Posted on 2002-01-29 00:06:49
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LordGalbalan
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For new users, it'd be easier. Now you don't have to memorize the cryptic commands, at least; and what's more, the menu calls upon itself immediately after said utility is closed. I could easily add mouse support-- and thence a GUI-- to the QB version... IF ONLY I could get those DEBUG machine scripts to make FAR calls. With FAR pointer access I could effectively make CALL ABSOLUTE calls and integrate. If only I could effect those FAR pointers then most of my BASIC game system would be finished. (QB is simply too slow for professional graphics; they are impossible without CALL ABSOLUTE, thanks to the BIOS. :/)But alas... if there is a way I don't yet have the info available to me to make it happen :(
For the record, I'd greatly appreciate any references to DEBUG manuals that can clear my path.
(BTW, I HAVE effected mouse calls with both CALL INTERRUPT and CALL ABSOLUTE. It's the pixel pushing that's giving me vertical retrace fits. @_@)
Posted on 2002-01-29 13:47:43
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