Thrasher
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Quote: Originally posted by zaril
I prefer Verge.
- The crew behind Verge is not obnoxious
Posted on 2004-08-14 20:11:16
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Gayo
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I wouldn't go that far. But it was pretty neat. I was afraid to use VERGE during that period because of the constantly shifting incompatible new unofficial versions though.
Posted on 2004-08-14 22:50:48
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Interference22
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And the moral of the story: V3 kicks ass.
And yes. Quake. Anyone know where I can get a large poster of John Carmack? Just to scare guests?
Posted on 2004-08-14 23:02:46
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TomT64
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Originally posted by zaril
I prefer Verge.
- It doesn't use yucky languages like Python What's wrong with Python?
Originally posted by zaril
- The crew behind Verge is not obnoxious You're not actually serious about that are you?
Originally posted by rpgking
Who expects a good gaming library on something like Linux anyway? ;) It's not about what we expect out of an OS, but what we make happen (at least with Linux). The world wouldn't get very far if we just expected everyone else to do the hard work so we could have what we want. Hence Python, the not-yucky and very easy language that shaves tons of time off projects. (I use as my examples the game "Winter" and probably a compo entry or two from the currently running compo.)
Originally posted by the_speed_bump
Also, my policy has always been that I shall personally implement video playback just for the enterprising group who can demonstrate their ability to finish such an ambitious project. Thus far, nobody has been brave enough to approach me on the matter. Just do it already so I can make an opening logo cutscene! 8>p That's all I really want. "Such an ambitious project" I assume refers to a complete game with proper use of videos?
Posted on 2004-08-15 00:59:19
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vecna
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Ok first let me make a gentle warning. We don't moderate a whole lot but if this thread degenerates much more I will lock and warp it. Lets keep it constructive folks.
Anyway python has many many technical merits, but due to its style a lot of people don't like it, myself included.
The original thread is about Sphere and Verge. Theres not really all much to discuss about ika vs verge. If you like python, use ika, if not, use verge.
Posted on 2004-08-15 02:50:54
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grenideer
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I don't think it degenerated that far but I guess this thread can be headed down that direction. Still, any topic comparing GCEs is likely to include a few others for completeness.
I guess I replied without actually contributing to the topic so I'll throw out a point against Sphere and Ika. I prefer to use verge because it helped teach me C, and being as how I wanted to make games for a living, learning C was a good route to take. I've gotten loads of fundamental knowledge from being used to the C language style.
Posted on 2004-08-15 08:12:33
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zaril
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(i'll be constructive)
<TomT64> What's wrong with Python?
Lack of brackets and indentation requirement.
<TomT64> You're not actually serious about that are you?
I am.
Posted on 2004-08-15 10:31:35
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andy
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Quote: "The limits of my language mean the limits of my world." - Ludwig Wittgenstein :)
Being able to think in terms of a static language like C is certainly an asset, but I don't think it's very important in the long run. Further, I think it's going to dwindle as time passes due to the productivity gains that can be had by higher level languages. For instance, most of the server for EVE Online was implemented in Python.
Also, just to be clear: I've used Python purely as an example. I'm not saying that Python specifically "is teh future" or anything like that, just that people are starting to realize that these tools can have an enormous impact on the quality of the final product and on the amount of time it takes to deliver it. (Lua sees a lot of use in the game development world already)
Posted on 2004-08-15 18:22:56
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grenideer
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Because it's a young industry, it's very hard to tell how long the C dominance will last. It's true that one day another language (possibly another language style) will take the reins, but I don't think it'll even start to happen with any coherence within the next 10 years.
Mind you, I'm talking about the games industry as a whole. Which means, mostly NOT the PC market. And while PC games usually have the luxury of being able to use a higher level language, the fact of the matter is that most console games still stick with C as opposed to C++. Next gen consoles may slowly start to change this, but the generation after that will probably be where more widespread change is gotten.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the senior programmers at companies who have been using C for a while will only continue to use it. So look to younger (less stable) companies to change the norm as far as the near future is concerned.
So, I'm not dissing Python or Java (or Javascript in this case), but I'm just saying I wouldn't be where I was today if verge was written in one of these languages.
Posted on 2004-08-15 22:18:28
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Tatzen
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Quote: Originally posted by Thrasher
Quote:Originally posted by zaril
I prefer Verge.
- The crew behind Verge is not obnoxious
I'm not obnoxious. I'm just helplessly superior.
You're the obnoxious one, with posts like that.
Posted on 2004-08-16 09:34:19
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TomT64
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Lack of brackets is offputting only because very few languages, if any (other than Python), don't use them.
An indentation requirement sure solves a lot of headaches I used to hear about verge games or C games, because of not indenting anything. So I like the indentation requirement because I don't need to worry about it when using Python, even though I do it anyway.
Posted on 2004-08-16 22:10:37 (last edited on 2004-08-16 22:11:14)
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Ear
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Quote:Originally posted by grenideer
Mind you, I'm talking about the games industry as a whole. Which means, mostly NOT the PC market. And while PC games usually have the luxury of being able to use a higher level language, the fact of the matter is that most console games still stick with C as opposed to C++. Next gen consoles may slowly start to change this, but the generation after that will probably be where more widespread change is gotten.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the senior programmers at companies who have been using C for a while will only continue to use it. So look to younger (less stable) companies to change the norm as far as the near future is concerned.
That argument doesn't hold water. The reason why console games stick to using very low level languages is for speed purposes and so they can take advantage of the console's quirky hardware. Game consoles generally use inferior hardware (compared to personal computers) that can be bought for cheap after it has fallen behind the technology curve.
Computer games could benefit more from rapid development. As for hobbyist game developers, speed is rarely an issue. It doesn't take much in the way of resources to run a 2d tile engine.
As for companies that use Python: NASA, Industrial Light & Magic and Google all do.
Posted on 2004-08-16 23:14:24 (last edited on 2004-08-16 23:15:33)
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Omni
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Hey! Google's being auctioned, and NASA has lost a few respect points in my book over the past two years.
Yeah...Anyway, nothing against Python. Besides, once you learn programming concepts and techniques, the barriers of language don't really matter an extraordinary amount, do they?
Posted on 2004-08-17 02:17:50
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grenideer
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Ear, I'm not saying C is a better language or whatever you thought I meant about consoles, just that C/C++ is more common in the games industry (and will be for a while). So for that reason alone I'm glad verge used the C style.
The reason I brought up consoles at all was that, if you're a game programmer, and you're looking for a job - there are more of them in consoles (since there's more money there right now).
Posted on 2004-08-17 06:33:31
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andy
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I don't think VC is similar enough to C for this to be an asset.
There's quite a lot more to C and C++ than parenthesis and braces, and VC hardly has anything at all in common with C or C++ than that. :)
Posted on 2004-08-17 06:57:16
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Toen
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Quote:Originally posted by the_speed_bump
I don't think VC is similar enough to C for this to be an asset.
There's quite a lot more to C and C++ than parenthesis and braces, and VC hardly has anything at all in common with C or C++ than that. :)
Ahem. Semicolons? Helloooo? ;D
Posted on 2004-08-17 07:17:36
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Tatzen
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Quote:Originally posted by the_speed_bump
I don't think VC is similar enough to C for this to be an asset.
There's quite a lot more to C and C++ than parenthesis and braces, and VC hardly has anything at all in common with C or C++ than that. :)
A lot of people have used VC as a stepping stone to C. It's a fairly natural progression. They're similar enough for an up-and-coming game developer to gain something from using VC, regardless of how disgusting you may think it is.
And ear, its great that NASA uses python, but they launch spacecraft, not video game titles. Google is a search engine company, not a video game developer.
Posted on 2004-08-17 23:09:23
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Interference22
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If you're looking for games that use Python, only ONE comes to mind: Blade of Darkness (Severance: Blade of Darkness in the UK). Browsing the files reveals a crapload of .PY files.
The downside? Let's see: it's vehemently refusing to run on my computer, the sheer weight of PY files means it takes upwards of 4 minutes just to uninstall the damn thing and in general, it's a mess. Not a great example, sadly. Whether Python has a direct effect on how much Severance sucks is purely speculatory but what's clear is that the game was coded by a group of semi-intelligent apes.
Anyone know any better examples or - hell, here's wishing - some way to get Severance to run on a Radeon 8500 with the 4.7 Catalyst drivers?
Posted on 2004-08-18 00:18:26
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andy
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My opinion of VC isn't important. If you like VC, then enjoy it. :)
My point is that the only thing VC has in common with C is a bit of syntax, so it's a bit of a stretch to call it a stepping stone.
Posted on 2004-08-18 01:42:09 (last edited on 2004-08-18 01:48:20)
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mcgrue
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Quote:Originally posted by Tatzen
I'm not obnoxious. I'm just helplessly superior.
You're the obnoxious one, with posts like that.
Badger: "You fink your better'n folks!"
Mal: "Only the ones I'm better than."
Posted on 2004-08-18 01:58:10
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