Quote:Originally posted by Gayo

I'd like to point of that there is that 'new here?' link up top that links to two separate VERGE tutorials.

In fairness, I made the link clearer, added the second tutorial, and reshuffled it to point the tutorials out after this thread.

Question. Why don't we toss all the 'New Here' stuff into a permanent sticky in the Verge General & Help forums? Surely they'd notice it there.

This is just me, but the minute I grasped programming VC, I had no real problems. Certainly I then had questions about certain utilities or engine issues, but the community helps out plenty with those. There was none of this 'I can't figure out to open up Notepad to type code' and after reading the documentation that came with the engine and the VC specification, it was pretty easy to set up a user.cfg file and figure out the four basic control buttons.

The only real problem I had was VC, and I didn't fix it by any amount of tutorials or message board help. I waited a year or more after I discovered Verge before actually using the engine because I couldn't grasp the concept of functions and variables. After that (mainly due to the fact that I suddenly realized it was just like programming for the old Atari that I tried), it suddenly fell into place.

Using VC I basically started understanding programming languages. I tried Python and have a tiny bit of experience with true C/C++, but it all started when I figured out the basic idea of a 'function' and a 'variable' with VC. I feel like my youthful experiments with the Atari helped. It wasn't a matter of documentation or community. I simply had to 'get' what programming was all about, and everything after that was a little more trivial. It immediately made sense how to make a game with Verge, and such hurdles as 'what do I do with this executable' or 'how does Map scripting work' became exponentially more trivial because I understood everything I needed to figure them out.

Maybe that is elitist, but I'd like to think that the minute anybody grasps what a 'function' and 'variable' are, everything else in creation with Verge is simply the creation of the game itself.

I know I started with three tutorials by a guy named Aen ( :) ) that might have made a huge bit of difference, because they explained things like how to set up a Verge directory, what files you need, user.cfg, etc., what the basic controls were, general stuff like that.

But those tutorials are still here, and all that information has been covered repeatedly and almost redudantly in V3 -- quite a few people have tried to write documents of their own (I even tried at one point). There's not much shortage of information. The underemphasized aesthetics of a simple 'new here?' link didn't stop me and shouldn't stop anybody.

Honestly, that makes perfect sense to me. You certainly can't be losing serious new members because the 'New here?' link isn't 48-pt size. If they can't explore a website through obviously understandable links like 'docs' and 'articles' (such as 'Hmm. I've looked at everything under Vital Links, but I still need more to get started. Hey...what's this 'docs' thing?') then maybe they aren't ready to start using something like a scripting language.

You can only do so much if someone isn't willing to search for information by themselves.

And yes, I understand problems like 'packaged games don't come with instructions', and that's not cool. Obviously you can overlook when you've been working with this stuff so long that other people don't understand _everything_ about it, and it is perfectly acceptable and almost expected to add basic instructions to released games. But for someone who wants to learn to work with the engine, you can't let a simple thing like 'lack of first impression accessibility' turn you off completely.

And for Verge, even if you want to aim at a huge community that's very accessable, that would be much more difficult than for a simpler game maker. You can only do so much to make a complete scripting language accessible. Sooner or later people have to start learning it on their own. You don't see people on other scripting/programming forums going 'Where do I type my code?'

Not that that's inexcusable. It's perfectly understandable if you're not sure where to start. But you've got to know how to search, and be willing to do a lot of learning on your own, probably.

Does any of this sound right?

I was an obnoxious twat, still am- But I learned/trudged through all that crap on my own and picked up a lot of know-how starting right here, if it wasn't for verge I wouldn't have picked up PHP.

As for the statement about the 'elitists', I used to rant about shit like that but then I realized- they're not elitists, they just smell funny.

I've seen many newbies get VERY pampered here, and they quit a week down the road after having every question answered quite thoroughly. The problem is, when you have a person who knows VC/programming teaching a person who doesn't know anything about syntax and the likes, is quite hard because you struggle with describing things in a manner that makes sense to THEM.

bahaha! lore? ELITE? hahaha, ahh you're funny!



The Tumvirate is a brotherhood!
It's as arbitrary as saying somone's an 'administrator' or 'board mod'.

Joewoof. Cool down... Relax. I agree that the 'New Here?' link could be moved onto the list of vital links, but it isn't 100% necessary. We're not elitist to the amount you may say, and we trust that if people actually have an interest in something on a webpage they'll read the page to locate it (which isn't hard) and not just mindlessly click. We're not a business, we don't all feel like spending our time explaining everything. The roleplaying game making engine was made as a hobby, and so are all the games made. Don't say we don't have tolerance for others' questions, or that we're not handing out all the necessary info to make a project. If you can't program, you can't program, only you can teach yourself. Others' documentation only helps you teach yourself, but it still can't if one isn't willing to learn.

Furthermore, you were ragging on Rysen just because a game he made in a competition doesn't have in game instructions. Look, he had a time limit, and when you're in a community-exclusive contest you usually write a readme that makes sense to at least those in the community. Also, I hate the feeling that you think it's a necessity to have in-game tutorials and online help (in the non-internet sense). Read the manual, retards, it's what everyone did back in the golden days of gaming.

The Verge 3 manual has a lot of information, and assumes you know how to program. It's useless if you don't know how, true. Then, just learn how to program and away you go. But Verge was made by programmers for programmers. The Verge 3 manual even resembles the excellently detailed PHP Manual. After you learn how to program properly, or get help learning how to program when you screw up, then the manual starts to gain more use. Whether you like it or not, the engine was designed for programmers with the ability to make advanced applications (if you can handle some of the minor restrictions the VergeC language has) for the people who like details, and simple yet fun things for the less detailed people.

If you want an example of a less outsider-friendly communities, look towards ika or look at Sphere (actually, I'd better not make that assumption about sphere, since I haven't used it... but, Joewoof would manage to find flaws with it).

I'm not against any of your suggestions, I'm against the way you suggest it. Much like obnoxious North American tourists going to foreign countries, where they feel royal treatment is suddenly a necessity just because they paid to go somewhere else in the world, and look down on other cultures. It's by no means a necessity that we listen to you at all, but if you suggest politely and courteously we also nicely change things to your liking.

Time to lay down my official double whammy:







And for a Mortal Kombat style 'finish him':



Good sir, you've been screenshotted, and panda'ed to the extreme. Now please, for the love of Judas Priest, find a new topic to rant about.

Back row (L-R):

Hahn (dr. pepper)
Aen
Zeromus

Front row (L-R):

McGrue
Vecna
Loretian

Quote:Originally posted by jrhee

I think a lot of VERGE people, especially the older ones are just elitists who don't like to be bothered with newbies. They like to sit up on their perch and look down at the rest of us and point and laugh and whatnot. That's just how it is, and thats how it's been.


Yes. We are evil masterfiend overlords who take great relish in tormenting the helpless community. vecna and I alone have spent a cumulative two thousand, seven hundred and eighty three hours just staring at these boards while rubbing our hands together and cackling. Zeromus spends his days hacking into verge's computers and crashing their hard work right before they would've released, and Tatsumi personally goes to the community's houses and rapes your pets.

Lore just likes to watch.

(note: The following isn't directed at jrhee.)

Seriously, though, I've personally spent way too much personal time in 2004 on both this website and on the Sully demo. I had a goodly sum of help (props to Zip, as always), but I spent hundreds of hours my own self.

vecna has spent nigh thousands of hours. I cannot imagine how much everyone else has spent.

And, really, do you know why we lose interest? Do you know why we stop caring? Because we throw all of this effort into something that we enjoyed, and instead of having people help us along with the mammoth amount of work, and and encouarge the continued development with awesome demos of happiness, what do we get?

Smiles for a week after any release.

Then, requests.

Then, demands.

Demands.

This is a gorramn free engine. There has been no money gained, and a fair sum of it spent. The manhour cost alone is amazing. Those of us who run the show do it because it's fun. And when it stops being fun, well, there's very little motivation.

Now, mind you, I'm still trying to keep things moving, and I've been unwisely spending time on this community lately, because for some reason I like to. Frankly, I think it must be my latent stupidity. But a lot of the community makes it very hard to stay chipper, and that's taken a toll on many of the other members of vergedev.

Yes, the community isn't very 'newbie-friendly' at the moment. I've asked for help in the past for people to help with that. Overkill and Rysen made those swell tutorials, but I'm personally quite a bit removed from the newbish mindset with VERGE, and don't really have the time to do such things even had I said mindset.

And the official documentation, although not perfect, is a damn fine reference. It's exceptionally useful if you're using it as a reference. At one time it was my intent for the docs to serve as a tutorial, but it's become apparent that that'd be an organizational calamity. the v3 docs are presently patterned after PHP.net's, which I consider to be one of the best references ever.

The concerns about newbie accesibility are valid. We need to be accessable to grow. But, for those of you making this loud demands (or anyone else that wants to help, really), the best way to get such things done is to pitch in yourself.

If you care, help. If you don't care, why are you complaining?

Mainly just building ire. I said it wasn't aimed at you.