How alive is this community? - VERGE, Free 2d Game Engine

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How alive is this community?

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ThinIce	AND SUCK A PANDA... Posted on 2005-05-05 17:53:40
mcgrue	Relaxing gets nothing done, Omni. ;) Posted on 2005-05-05 17:55:36
jrhee	ire is wack, son. Posted on 2005-05-05 17:55:57
ThinIce	Anger is more useful than despair -Terminator Posted on 2005-05-05 17:56:43
mcgrue	Who said I was angry? More... disappointed. Weary, maybe? Posted on 2005-05-05 18:32:13
anonymous	Arias here. I think most of the newb's points are pretty true, but like someone said, they're said in a really obnoxious manner. It's pretty rude to come in barging and bitching but perhaps it's also a good wake-up call? Oh well. I think in general, Verge activity has been decreasing for the past few years mostly because the 'core' Verge people are going into college and well, having lives of their own. They came here mostly during high school when they had plenty of free ass time, and now they're moving on. I myself came here at 14-15, plonked into a couple of good-looking projects but fortunately I got into the Diver Down team which had an amazing group lead (Grenideer) who just kept on going and going. He is amazing stuff -- and we got Diver Down out after 5 years of production, of which I was in for 3+ years. I joined another project by Alexandiir later, but he hasn't been too active. And now, I'm studying in the University of Toronto in 3rd year, and I can't find a group that's consistent enough that's worth my time. If Grenideer was still doing amateur stuff, I'd probably go with him again but now he's pro, I'm not sure who else is really working solid and consistently on their projects with a real chance of completion. I don't like my art to be wasted -- I spend up to 8 hours or more on a single cell and when the project fades away, it's hours of time going down the drain. Verge needs an influx of newbs with hopes and dreams of making their own traditional 2D rpg -- and tell a story of their own. But more than that, they have to be pretty tough. It's not unusual if Verge has a high dropout rate and retains maybe only 15% of the original noobs, but the seasoned 15% will probably be solid contributers. However, we don't seem to be getting any 'good' newbs recently. But anyways -- I love Verge, and I still play all the new demos and check the site a few times a week. Unable to find a consistent and productive team, I think sometime I'll have to let go of Verge and spend time elsewhere.. but the lure of making an RPG of my own.. is hard to forget. Now, if only I could code.. =_=; Posted on 2005-05-06 03:10:14
Joewoof	Sigh. I feel like I'm restating the same points over and over again. And you guys are 'countering', even where there isn't supposed to be arguments in the first place. And guess why I'm suggesting changes, it's because ThinIce said 'Getting started IS a downfall here- I agree...'. Others also agreed that this place is going through some down-time. So did what's best - lighting fires under your lazy f@t-@$$3$. Sorry I burnt some of ya. My bad. So, without further ado, let the show continue. :) Overkill, I like how you're portraying me as some obnoxious foreigner through amplifying actions that I didn't do half of. Nice one. ^(-3-)>------------oPOW(^x_X)^ We're not elitist to the amount you may say What amount? The thought hadn't even crossed my mind until Jrhee stated it. Even after that, I was pointing out that you guys smell sorta like elitists from how things work at the moment. Not once did I state so. that we're not handing out all the necessary info to make a project. > Don't put words in my mouth. I even said that there's so much good information to the point of overload. Don't say we don't have tolerance for others' questions > Don't say that I said that. you were ragging on Rysen > And I apologized that I did not notice the readme.txt file. Apparently, it wasn't good enough for you. Don't stir the hot coals, my man. - - - Then there are other stuph. We're not a business, we don't all feel like spending our time explaining everything. > It took me 5 minutes to look at the PHP code for the first time in my life, realize that it works not much differently from HTML with some C-like programming capabilities, and cut/paste it to Vital Links. I'm sure it can take McGrue 5 seconds, and yet it is not done. That's a hell lot of time for something so simple. The Verge 3 manual even resembles the excellently detailed PHP Manual. > I don't see Verge3 having a 'simple tutorial' section. That's exactly one of the points I was trying to get across. It doesn't need one though, because one can easily be referred to one of the beginner-level guides. look towards ika or look at Sphere > Of course I can find flaws with it. :P But that's not the point. The Verge website is FAR superior to Sphere or Ika, but why stop there? Why don't we keep improving it? I'm not against any of your suggestions, I'm against the way you suggest it. > I'm also against the way you make semi-directionless counter-arguments. If this is the point you want to make in the first place, do so without adding in provocative statements. Peace. OMFG!!! I LOVE THAT TROLL!!! That panda looks like my bro. And that cat is SEXY! the v3 docs are presently patterned after PHP.net's It is still missing an entire 'Getting Started' section. Admit it. (>-3-)>@KAMEHAMEHA@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@(^&_&)^ Yes, the community isn't very 'newbie-friendly' at the moment. I've asked for help in the past for people to help with that. Overkill and Rysen made those swell tutorials, but I'm personally quite a bit removed from the newbish mindset with VERGE, and don't really have the time to do such things even had I said mindset. Here's a wise solution. Focus on getting more publicity. Start with making the site newbie-friendly. This will open the door to more members, which in turn will spread the word that about Verge's awesomeness. The content is already there, it's just a matter of rearranging a few things. Newbies don't stay newbies. There is a percentage that some of them will become veterans. When there are more veterans, there will be more people wanting to pitch in. The fact that they've become veterans mean that they will surely have the ability to help. Eventually, these vets will gain enough experience to take the reigns. What does that mean for you whitebeard-cultivators? Retirement. With more people working at your feet, you can finally stop sitting at that ridiculous perch and move up into the clouds to truly be a God of a dedicated populous. But first, come down - with wobbling-creaking bones and all - and bless the roots with some magical mushrooms that have the 'GO UP' arrow embedded into them. In other words, give the newbies a neon sign showing which way to go. publicity = more newbies = more veterans = abdication = freetime It's a win-win situation if you ask me. How's that for motivation? If you care, help. If you don't care, why are you complaining? Because I have no PHP experience and no access to the site. Otherwise, I would've slapped y'all silly with my uber webmaking skillz! HUZZAH!! XD I think we all need to chill, sit down in our rocking chairs, and simmer down with some sweet iced tea. > I love you Omni, can I have your baby? perhaps it's also a good wake-up call? > You bet your three ass-cheeks it is. >XD However, we don't seem to be getting any 'good' newbs recently. > Implied message registered. >_< Now, if only I could code.. > You're a graphics artist, right? ooh...prey And here's my tribute to this topic: Just make damn sure that it STAYS here. :P Posted on 2005-05-06 03:43:40
Joewoof	Alright. In case it didn't register for you knucklehe- I mean respectable minds, I'm deeply sorry for the psychological trauma I've inflicted upon you. I was under the impression that you are casual enough to not take it too seriously, but I was wrong to assume that two veteran communities would react the same to noise-pollution. I guess no one likes to be criticized in an obnoxious way, but I thought a melodramatic kick in your faces would do better than sludging in like a goo - kinda like shock-treatment. Apparently, I went overboard and broke some of your noses. My bad. It does show how stale this place got though. Although you've proven that the veterans are unfathomably active (and tremendously defensive), the lack of resistance against alleged 'rudeness' definitely can be attributed to the meager trickle of newbies. All the more reason to stir things up. You gotta admit that it was 'good cognitive exercise'. :P The problem is that the admins are very tired. Years of management definitely takes a toll on you. I've experienced that first-hand. That is the exact reason why I've converted my website from an ambitious magazine-oriented one to a mere workshop for a team project. The saddest part of it is that they are often not appreciated for their hard work, and it is a universal problem of being a webmaster (Valkysas of RPGMPavilion and Ixzy of RPGMMag complains of the same thing). However, reading from McGrue's post, this seems especially tragic here. That is why you have to fish for those new guys as best as possible. That last push must be made, or do you guys expect McGrue and Vecna to spend even more time? Posted on 2005-05-06 04:08:11
Joewoof	I spent 4 hours responding to you guys. Savor it. Posted on 2005-05-06 04:19:58
Parslip	I just recently (like earlier this week) remembered Verge...it had been almost 3 years since I last checked it out. I was surprised to see a version 3, and taking a look at it, I got more and more excited. So I'm attempting to make a game. Moreover, I'm getting my gaming guild involved with the project. Regardless of our success or failure in making anything, there are quite a few members in my guild - if even 10% of them show any interest in this at all, that would be upwards of 100 people taking a look at this site in the next few weeks. If 10% of them like what they see and stick around, that's 10 new newbs to this community (in addition to myself). If only 10% of them become veterans, then thats ONE VETERAN! That's right, I'm bringing you guys a future veteran! Maybe... ...I personally think that V3 is awesome. I've only been coding for 2 days, but I've put more then 12 hours in so far. I haven't had much trouble finding what I'm looking for on this site. Sure things could be reorganized to be made even easier to find (I could not figure out how to make a tile in a .vsp, so instead I just blitted 16x16 images, for example), but really it isn't all that difficult. Anyone who finds it so will probably not be a very strong member of the community, and even if they are, they will be all the better for having to struggle more in the beginning. Posted on 2005-05-06 04:53:27
Overkill	Apologies if you took offense at my remarks, Joewoof. I understand where you're coming from. But you also must know that your suggestions and criticism were phrased a little dramatically. I didn't mean to reopen wounds or anything. I was just venting out some interanger, and I'm sure that Ness and Thinice were also. You're not the 'obnoxious tourist', but the way you worded things really made it sound demanding. It's really hard to know the mind of someone who just shows their face, and so I'm sorry I misinterpretted your wording. Truce? Posted on 2005-05-06 06:58:19
Joewoof	Anyone who finds it so will probably not be a very strong member of the community, and even if they are, they will be all the better for having to struggle more in the beginning. Excellent point Parslip, but on the other hand, first impressions stay with you. If that first impression is painful and frustating, there is a high chance that it will stay with you for quite a long time. The problem is that with other alternatives, people may not have the patience to sort through the site, even though for them, Verge may be the ultimate answer. And Overkill and Rysen worked there asses off. I'd hate to see those tutorials go unnoticed by those they're meant for - clueless newbies. Posted on 2005-05-06 07:51:22
Omni	Though I think I'll refrain from cyber procreation, that picture you have of the death red V3 site is bloody funny :) Posted on 2005-05-06 09:49:24
ThinIce	Ok everyone needs to STFU about this stuff, it's said, point taken. You can permutate how you want to say it as much as you want but it doesn't fix/change/make things better. Your voice is heard- lets see what happens.... And your tone, it's all wrong, do it again- and I'll stab you in the face with a soldering iron. Posted on 2005-05-06 10:50:19
Joewoof	Truce? Truce. ^^' Though I think I'll refrain from cyber procreation, that picture you have of the death red V3 site is bloody funny :) Nice pun. lol :D And your tone, it's all wrong, do it again- and I'll stab you in the face with a soldering iron. Been there, done that. I've got scars to prove it. Get more creative - like piercing the eyeball with a rusted needle coated in sulfiric acid. :P Posted on 2005-05-06 11:11:43
blues_zodiakos	... I don't think I'd be entirely out of line pointing out that it seems that you have even less of a life than me. :p Also... it might just be me, but it seems that even though there's currently a kind of lull in the verge community, that the community in general has been more active in the previous year and a half than it has been in almost 3 years or so. Verge3 did much to revitalize people's interest in it, even though its release wasn't quite like the 200 or so people in the Verge IRC chat room like the day before the Verge2 release. From my perspective, Verge2 KILLED the verge community - it was too complicated, too powerful, yet too limited in certain ways. Verge3 brought the verge community back from the dead, and even if it hasn't been the most productive community, it's still an impressive feat nonetheless. To put it in perspective, one of the greatest game creation communities of all time - the ZZT community - was pretty much destroyed after it was fragmented by Megazeux - and it NEVER really came back. I think the same thing happened to Verge, in a way - Verge1, while much more technically limited than Verge2, was much more simple, and took less time to get a game demo created. When Verge2 came out, a lot of people that liked Verge1 felt threatened by the fact that they were using the Old Stuff, and yet they couldn't get the hang of the New Stuff; so they left. I think the fact that Verge still exists at all (and is supposedly still in development) is a testement to the fact that we still care - and something amazing will come of it eventually. I think the community is pretty lively at the moment, compared to the Verge2 age. What I'd really like to see is a complete redesign of the Verge-RPG site to turn it into a community portal for verge. It would be really cool to have things like current demo screenshots cycling in one block, new project announcments, a development blog, events calandar, easy resource links, and maybe even a newbie tutorial wiki so everyone could more easily contribute. Posted on 2005-05-06 12:14:43
DanteC	Throwing in some comments from another newb to Verge... To be honest I find that Verge seems to give you everything you need to get started (I've only played around with it for a few hours, I have to admit). I should explain that although I've got no experience with C I've been fidling with computers on and off for most of my life, to the point when I was trying to get my head around assembly for my Amstrad (I failed miserbly if you need to know). I flicked through 'teach yourself programming' books from the 80's and the best advice I've ever seen from them is always the case of explaining the very basics, something along the lines as printing something on screen, making variables, checking flags, etc, then showing HUGE (well, 50-odd lines of code) and breaking it down for people to understand. Skimming through Sully's code I could probably get at least some of it if I took my time to study it properly. I for some reason couldn't get the code from the 'Hello World' to work but I've been following Rysens tutorial and made some sense of it. If I've got a chance I'll take a look at it at the weekend again. Probably the reason a lot of people are put off is because they expect a 'click and play' interface, and don't know how to properly code. Really it's the fault of the manufacturers making everything so damn 'user-friendly', but I agree Verge could be a little friendlier to people. But really a lot of work has to be done by anyone who plays with it. Even if its the case of making something playable, or being nice like Rysen, Overkill and Aen (his/her? article explains the basic loop of any game, it must be read!) and making tutorials, SO much work has to be done by the person using Verge. I'm not so sure if Verge is really for complete novice programmers, but it's deffinatly a step up from something like Clik&Play, and if 2D Rpg's are the thing you want to make then at least go through the tutorials before giving up. If you want to get started with programming then get a copy of Dark Basic, Blitz Basic or DIV Arena, follow their tutorials, study their code, and see how a game is set out, and then carry it to Verge, where you might have to learn some C, but you'll have an idea of how to plan a game properly and how much perservierence you'll need to have. If you can't be bothered with the basics, whine that it's to hard and go back to kiddy-script stuff then I dare you to try to figure out the SKD for Deus Ex. Then you will know pain. Sorry this is quite long. Posted on 2005-05-06 12:33:10
Joewoof	... I don't think I'd be entirely out of line pointing out that it seems that you have even less of a life than me. :p > Depends on what you mean be having a life. If having a life means doing what really matters, then I'm confident that you have less then me. If it means socializing and chillin', it's indeed true - at the moment at least. :P What I'd really like to see is a complete redesign of the Verge-RPG site to turn it into a community portal for verge. > Until we get a new webmaster, it ain't gonna happen. McGrue said himself that he's unwilling to invest the time and effort, especially since he's not really interested in the prospect of more newbies. Er, can we bribe him? To be honest I find that Verge seems to give you everything you need to get started. > It does. ^_^ I'm not so sure if Verge is really for complete novice programmers > It's not. All of the docs do not go into enough depth about the bare-bone basics to teach someone who has non-existance exposure to programming. A person who has experience with GameMaker's GML though, will be able to make a smooth transition to Verge3 with the available materials. Too smooth, actually. :) Posted on 2005-05-06 13:45:12
Parslip	My opinion is that Verge is certainly not for everyone who wants to make a game. If all they want is to easily produce something playable so they can tell their story, something like Neverwinter Nights would be much more suitable. Verge is better at showcasing your abilties in other areas, and being more complicated is a better example of your ability to work on a large project if you can complete it. My primary reason for wanting to use this is to comtinue building a portfolio of projects I have completed. As far as the website, I agree that if McGrue doesn't want to be forced to spend a lot of time working on things, then there isn't much chance of it getting done without a new webmaster. Then again, I don't know that it matters all that much - I don't care if others come to the site, all I really need are the tools already in existance and the advise of more experienced Vergers and anything beyond that is just for fun. Posted on 2005-05-06 14:13:02
ThinIce	The site doesn't need a redux - it needs some propellant in the direction it's BEEN heading, and a few ergonomic changes. Tis all. I've done a bit-o-work for the site myself and all I can say is grue slaved his ass off over this on his own... Albeit some redundancies of a bigwig site are the downfall of a frustrating over-worked individual, grue is indeed assless now. And has no more ass to work away... poor grue :( Posted on 2005-05-06 15:07:22

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