Quote:Originally posted by Unimportant NPC (Anonymous)
Songwriting is indeed important, which is why Iron Maiden have churned out 5-star albums again and again since the early 80's, and GNR have only ever produced one decent record. Also, 'whoever they have' is Bruce Dickinson, who is widely regarded (though don't ask me who by) as an exceptional vocalist.

But I suppose it all comes down in the end to a matter of personal taste.

Though having said that, GNR do suck.

Whatever, their vocalist may be exceptional, but come on. Better than Axl? No way.

Additionally, though Gn'r has only released THREE exceptional albums, there's far more classic songs on those three albums than the entire Maiden catlogue combined.

It's like comparing Michelangelo to Leonardo, not the turtles, only Axl is even better than all of them combined, turtle or otherwise.

Edit: seriously, aside from hardcore metal fans, everybody knows at least a few Gn'R songs. Most people don't hardly even remember Maiden anymore - again, except for Metal and Maiden fans

Quote:Originally posted by loretian

Quote:Originally posted by Unimportant NPC (Anonymous)
Songwriting is indeed important, which is why Iron Maiden have churned out 5-star albums again and again since the early 80's, and GNR have only ever produced one decent record. Also, 'whoever they have' is Bruce Dickinson, who is widely regarded (though don't ask me who by) as an exceptional vocalist.

But I suppose it all comes down in the end to a matter of personal taste.

Though having said that, GNR do suck.

Whatever, their vocalist may be exceptional, but come on. Better than Axl? No way.

Additionally, though Gn'r has only released THREE exceptional albums, there's far more classic songs on those three albums than the entire Maiden catlogue combined.

It's like comparing Michelangelo to Leonardo, not the turtles, only Axl is even better than all of them combined, turtle or otherwise.

Edit: seriously, aside from hardcore metal fans, everybody knows at least a few Gn'R songs. Most people don't hardly even remember Maiden anymore - again, except for Metal and Maiden fans
I think it depends on where you are. Over here you don't hear about GNR any more, except for occasional airings of Sweet Child O Mine on soft-rock middle-of-the-road radio stations. Whereas Iron Maiden are still releasing records and so still have a presence in the music press and in the stores even though they're no longer so well known.
Also, I didn't actaully say that Bruce Dickinson is a better singer than Axl, although I think he's at least his equal... Ok then, he IS better. Get the Powerslave album and you'll see/hear Maiden at their best. Then tell me I'm wrong.

'Here' is Britain (I should remember to sign in more). I'd have to disagree that Powerslave is merely 'good'... Number Of The Beast is usually seen as their best album, but having listened to all of their classic period records many times I think Powerslave is the best of them overall (and featuring the best of the 'epic' tracks they were famous for in the 80's). Surely the best album of one of the world's most successful metal bands is more than 'good'? You should listen to it a few more times.

Has Maiden ever done anything near the level of Sweet Child O' Mine? Paradise City? Novemeber Rain? Don't Cry? Patience? Madagascar (ok, that one is up and coming but it will be just as classic)? Name me the songs.
I could name the best of their songs though if you're not really a Maiden fan you probably wouldn't have heard of them as they've never been a 'singles band'. Bring Your Daughter To The Slaughter is probably their best known song, at least over here as it was a #1 single (and it was on the soundtrack of Nightmare on Elm Street or something), but generally the best stuff is kept on the albums.
Anyway, popular and catchy songs are all very well and good, but it's the overall product that counts more in a 'which band is best' debate. I think The Final Countdown was a good song, but that doesn't mean Europe weren't still a shite band. In the same way (but to a much lesser degree) I think there's not enough to GNR's 'other' songs. Use Your Illusion is a case in point here, though I'm pretty sure you won't agree. I think they would have ended up with a far better result had they foregone the repeated songs, covers, and b-side fodder and simply put the cream of the crop onto one record. Though obviously there's more money to be made out of two records than one, especially since the huge success of the previous album...

They continue to progress, and the only band that can get away with not progressing and still be awesome is AC/DC.
I don't necessarily think that Maiden are doing themselves justice by sticking with the same musical style, not experimenting a great deal (for variety they've done (I think) two acoustic songs over seventeen or so albums), but I can see why they do it - it's a style which they've honed to perfection over more than 20 years, and it's what their fans want. They may not be jacks of all trades, but they're undisputed masters of the one they do best. Nobody does metal better, or comes close.

Bruce DickInSon
Amusing, but still a cheap shot. :)

EDIT: Even though I removed some of them prior to posting, I think I can still claim a new record for number of instances of the word 'best' in a single post. :D

Isn't Virgin Radio one of the UK's biggest rock radio station? They recently held a poll on the best song of all time:

1. LED ZEPPELIN Stairway to heaven
2. U2 One
3. GUNS N ROSES Sweet child o mine
4. REM Everybody hurts
5. ROBBIE WILLIAMS Angels
6. JOHN LENNON Imagine
7. QUEEN Bohemian rhapsody
8. THE VERVE Bitter sweet symphony
9. EAGLES Hotel california
10. COLDPLAY Trouble

Other GN'R songs on the list were:

35. GUNS N ROSES november rain
95. GUNS N ROSES paradise city
419. GUNS N ROSES Live & let die

Full list here

I don't even see Maiden on the list anywhere.

Quote:Originally posted by Alex

Yeah, that's true. Though in my opinion there are some very suspect entries on that list, not least One by U2 supposedly being the second greatest song ever written. :\ I remember a similar poll by another radio station in about 1998 had Don't Look Back In Anger by Oasis as the best song ever, which only makes #45 on the Virgin list, so it varies pretty wildly... There doesn't seem to be any metal at all on the Virgin list, which I suppose isn't really surprising, I'm sure a poll on a more metal-orientated station would turn up a few results.


Well, again, my point is in regards to non-metalheads. And One is a great U2 song, that's only recently become more appreciated. It's just one of those songs. But yeah, polls are bullshit.


When I said you don't hear about GNR here any more, that isn't quite what I meant. I mean, you still hear Sweet Child O Mine on the radio sometimes, as the poll suggests, but I think the Greatest Hits last year has a lot to do with that placing (and the others that made the list, for that matter). But what is there to hear about GNR now anyway? I think as far as the record buying public here is concerned, they're a late eighties/early nineties heavy rock band who split up ages ago. They're only well known in the same way that other once popular bands are still known - by fans of the group who still play the records, and on account of the occasional Greatest Hits or similar.


I know they're not relevant anymore, but there's two points I make in regards to this:
1) Their songs are timeless classics. Yeah, the band isn't in the music news, but people still play and love their songs. Non-metal fans still love their songs. Nobody but Maiden and Metal fans listen to Iron Maiden, and that's the truth.
2) Guns N' Roses mentions are still all over the place, in rock magazines. Pick up any issue of rolling stone, blender, etc., and you'll find at least three or four references to Axl and/or Guns N' Roses. They're always there. Despite having only released three great albums, you can go anywhere in the world, and ask who people would rather hear a new album from, between Gn'R and Maiden, and everybody will say Gn'R, except Maiden fans, and possibly Howard Dean.

Live And Let Die? Hahaha! I don't know why so many people consider that song a classic, but they do.

They've had three, though two were only for pretty short periods, the most notable being when Dickinson left for a time during the 90's and was replaced by Blaze Bayley who wasn't really up to the job, resulting in the rather average albums X Factor and Virtual XI.

Regarding comparative popularity, one of my geeky music books tells me that Appetite For Destruction was at #1 in the US charts for 5 weeks and went 15 times platinum, whereas here it only reached #5 and twice platinum... So I think that's why Iron Maiden are probably better known amongst music fans here, not just the fact that they've been around for so long and released so many records, but that they have simply been more successful in the charts... But anyway, charts don't make a band good, so we're going to have to continue to disagree on that one.

Anyway, the two uyi's should have been one argument is way overdone, and can you imagine a record with all the *really* good songs from UYI's on it?
Don't Cry
Nov. Rain
Coma
Civil War
14 Years
Knockin' on Heaven's Door
Breakdown
Locomotive
Estranged
You Could Be Mine

That's like.. too many epic songs and just too much for one album. It would have been ridiculous.
Get rid of bloody Knockin' On Heaven's Door then! I don't have a whole lot of respect for bands including cover versions on their records, especially when they're clearly talented enough to write brilliant songs of their own. And then releasing that cover as a single is just unforgivably crap. I'd have to argue that that track is certainly filler, regardless of its quality... it's not like they decided to build a two album project around some dodgy old Bob Dylan song... Well, maybe they did for all I know but I hope not.

Despite having only released three great albums, you can go anywhere in the world, and ask who people would rather hear a new album from, between Gn'R and Maiden, and everybody will say Gn'R, except Maiden fans, and possibly Howard Dean.
You're right, and I would rather hear a new GNR album too, but that's because there hasn't been one for so long. If Iron Maiden hadn't released an album for as long as GNR, it would be a much harder choice... Any release date for Chinese Democracy yet?

I don't know why so many people consider that song a classic, but they do.
I just think that these covers kind of detract from their own material, especially because they seem to be so popular amongst GNR fans... They really didn't need to do it.

Knockin' on Heaven's Door is still considered a classic, and rightly so, despite it being a total bastardization


See, this is when you know it's a good band, when they release a bastardization, yet turns into a classic.

Alright, well, originally I wrote a big long response to everything you said, but aside from the Bon Jovi thing, I decided to edit and delete it all.

I don't know the Iron Maiden numbers, first of all, but I highly doubt they have any one single album that's sold anywhere near the level of AFD. That aside, I know they're a popular band and continue to sell well, but you're missing my point.

Run To The Hills is probably the most well known song they have, and I'd be willing to bet at least half the people on verge-rpg.com have never heard of it. I'd also be willing to be that at least 99% of them have heard of two or more Gn'R songs. The best Gn'R songs are damn good, and in an entirely different league than Maiden.

Run To The Hills is some heavy metal song about the American Indians being killed by the white man, I think. WTF??? A timeless classic those lyrics do not make, regardless if it's an awesome metal song or not.

I still sometimes get confused between GNR and Bon Jovi even today. :)


Bon Jovi can suck my dick.

I don't really have any idea of the worldwide sales figures, but the best seller is probably Number Of The Beast.


Please take my word for it - yeah, some non-Maiden fans know of those songs, but .... how can you even compare them to Paradise City or Sweet Child O' Mine? They're not even in the same league, as far as public awareness.
I'm not saying that those songs aren't more well known than the Maiden ones I mentioned. Of course they are; they're pure pop tunes. I'm sure the Spice Girls have better known songs than Iron Maiden too. But I think you're trying to quietly move the goalposts with this popularity thing, as I said they were more well known 'over here'. :) GNR have a *wider* appeal of course, as they're a lot less metal than Maiden, but it doesn't matter who you're popular with. Metal fans are people too, on the whole.

Hey man, I'm not doubting the popularity of Maiden. I'm just saying, it's never been anywhere the level of Gn'R during the few years they were popular. Nowhere close ........ Well, maybe I over-spoke a little, but my point was that Maiden songs will die with it's guitarists, Gn'R songs will still be getting airplay in 2007, maybe even 2008
More popular at the time of GNR's height, sure. But now? And overall? A different story. GNR will be remembered as an excellent rock group amongst many excellent rock groups. Maiden will be remembered as the untouchable behemoths of heavy metal.

Guns N' Roses pulling 200,000 people with an almost entirely new band after over 10 years of no new material is just a testament to their popularity.
Indeed it is, just as Maiden pulling 250,000 people over fifteen years after pulling 200,000 people at the first Rock In Rio is a testament to their enduring popularity.
I don't know whether they were at 4, but I don't think so...

It's not just a point, it's a check-mate.
Nonsense, record stores opening at midnight just so screaming fangirls can get an early copy means nothing. And furthermore, Maiden had slightly less stupid haircuts in the eighties than GNR did. Game set and match. :)

EDIT: I started writing this ages ago and then went away to do other things and by the time I got back and finished... it's all different... :(

I'd also like to take a little space to address your thoughts about Gn'R being pop music.

It's relative, but every fan of every band thinks their band is the most whatever. I mean, come on, can you honestly listen to Run To The Hills and tell me that's not cheese 80's rock sounding? Do you really think that anyone besides Maiden fans consider Iron Maiden this giant behemoth of untouchable heavy metal goodness? I think most people think they're just another 80's metal band. I'm not even saying they weren't a giant behemoth of heavy metal, I'm saying, most people just know of Iron Maiden as a heavy metal 80's band, and that's it. The same can be said of Guns N' Roses, but at least people know of their music as well.